A Dispute Again

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HermanHiddema
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Re: A Dispute Again

Post by HermanHiddema »

Bonobo wrote:
HermanHiddema wrote:
RobertJasiek wrote:I try to "force" my view on anybody.


And you think that's ok?

And you think it’s OK to quote only a part of what Robert wrote, thus changing its meaning to the opposite?

RobertJasiek wrote:[..] In none of these functions, I try to "force" my view on anybody. Instead, I try to CONVINCE.

[..]


No, I do not. It was an example in response to Robert doing the exact same thing to my post.
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Re: A Dispute Again

Post by Bonobo »

HermanHiddema wrote:
Bonobo wrote:And you think it’s OK to quote only a part of what Robert wrote, thus changing its meaning to the opposite?

No, I do not. It was an example in response to Robert doing the exact same thing to my post.

Then, IMHO, it would have been sportsmanlike to point Robert towards the misquoted part, which I assume is this:
HermanHiddema wrote:[..] with respect to tournament rules, the group's idea of morality should override that of the individual. [..]
so, probably, towards the “with respect to tournament rules” part which he left out.

Doing the same as what one criticizes in ones opponent doesn’t seem to be a good idea to me.
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Re: A Dispute Again

Post by HermanHiddema »

Bonobo wrote:
HermanHiddema wrote:
Bonobo wrote:And you think it’s OK to quote only a part of what Robert wrote, thus changing its meaning to the opposite?

No, I do not. It was an example in response to Robert doing the exact same thing to my post.

Then, IMHO, it would have been sportsmanlike to point Robert towards the misquoted part, which I assume is this:
HermanHiddema wrote:[..] with respect to tournament rules, the group's idea of morality should override that of the individual. [..]
so, probably, towards the “with respect to tournament rules” part which he left out.

Doing the same as what one criticizes in ones opponent doesn’t seem to be a good idea to me.


Yes, I agree. Experience, however, shows that trying to explain to Robert that he did something wrong is not a fruitful course of action. This was just a flippant way of giving up in disgust. I did deliberately misquote Robert in the most obvious way I could, in the hope that anyone could see it was not serious. Apparently that didn't work.
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Re: A Dispute Again

Post by RobertJasiek »

Even when applied only to tournament rules, morality is almost as mighty as when applied to a general thing. Speak about sportsmanship instead of morality, and we do not need to consider millenia of development of morality, but we can then restrict ourselves to considering sports and mental sports. Even better, let us consider only go tournaments.
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Re: A Dispute Again

Post by RobertJasiek »

HermanHiddema wrote:Experience, however, shows that trying to explain to Robert that he did something wrong is not a fruitful course of action.


1) If what I did was right, then trying to explain to me that it would have been wrong is probably not fruitful.

2) If what I did was wrong, then convincing arguments are probably fruitful.

3) If different value systems lead to different judgements, then more convincing arguments can be fruitful. (Example: I argued about J1989 application, but was then convinced that WAGC Rules applied and therefore changed my opinion.)

4) If different value systems lead to different judgements, then not convincing arguments are probably not fruitful. (Example: The argument that [too] strict rules application would be sportsmanlike with a positive positional judgement score but unsportsmanlike with a negative positional judgement score I find not convincing because it is inconsistent. I find my view that rules application is in principle the same regardless of the positional judgement score more convincing because of the general nature of the players' duty to abide by the rules.)
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Re: A Dispute Again

Post by topazg »

RobertJasiek wrote:
HermanHiddema wrote:Experience, however, shows that trying to explain to Robert that he did something wrong is not a fruitful course of action.


1) If what I did was right, then trying to explain to me that it would have been wrong is probably not fruitful.

2) If what I did was wrong, then convincing arguments are probably fruitful.

3) If different value systems lead to different judgements, then more convincing arguments can be fruitful. (Example: I argued about J1989 application, but was then convinced that WAGC Rules applied and therefore changed my opinion.)

4) If different value systems lead to different judgements, then not convincing arguments are probably not fruitful. (Example: The argument that [too] strict rules application would be sportsmanlike with a positive positional judgement score but unsportsmanlike with a negative positional judgement score I find not convincing because it is inconsistent. I find my view that rules application is in principle the same regardless of the positional judgement score more convincing because of the general nature of the players' duty to abide by the rules.)


You are apparently oblivious to the logical issue overlooked in these. "Convincing" is reliant the different value systems mentioned in 3) and 4). You won't be convinced by the arguments people are making with respect to sportsmanship because their arguments are based on (and convincing with respect to) their value judgements, and therefore automatically unconvincing with your values.

You can't expect someone to have any fruitful progress convincing you to change your value system by creating an argument based on their own, and if their argument is well tuned to your value system, it's going to provide extra evidence that your value system is worth keeping, so it's a catch 22.
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Re: A Dispute Again

Post by RobertJasiek »

topazg wrote:automatically unconvincing with your values.


No. My value system allows input. (It is possible that some others' value systems don't.)
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Re: A Dispute Again

Post by oren »

RobertJasiek wrote:No. My value system allows input. (It is possible that some others' value systems don't.)


Over the years, evidence has pointed to the contrary.
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Re: A Dispute Again

Post by p2501 »

Matti wrote:I don't know, if you are from Europe not. The dispute was in Europe. We have the rules of play, which define the game and we have tournament rules. They are used to distinguish the skill of go from other skills, and the effect of other skills should be minimized. Other skills include social skills, verbal skills, physical skills etc. A player with basic social skills should be able to manage in a go tournament. In my opinion sportsmanship is in the dimension of social skills more than a go skill. If players act sportsmanlike, it is fine by me. However, if my opponent breaks the rules, sometimes I feel I cannot choose the way of sportsmanship. I usually ignore minor rules breaches, because the game gets disturbed by the dispute. However, if the breaches get repeated or more serious I would call the referee. If I don't stop my opponent, maybe he continues breaking the rules in his next games also.

Sounds perfectly reasonable.

Matti wrote:Once my opponent played a stone, lifted his finger and after one or two seconds moved the stone to the adjanced intersection. I complained and referee was called. We had to play a new game with our remaining thinking times. I had 6 minutes and my opponent 9. Byoyomi was 30 seconds. While waiting the referee I thought that the new place of the stone would have better for me, but I stayed with my claim.

Given that this was a tournament and that there is no reason to believe that this is allowed or common under any ruleset, I would find it understandable for you to declare immediate defeat upon your opponent (if supported by the rules). You could also offer him to take back the stone to its original position, depending on how serious you are taking the tournament.
So don't get me wrong and think that my view of sportsmanship supports rulebreaches.

But we're mixing rules and sportsmanship to much again. Going back to the initial dispute - what is so questionable and unsportsmanlike for many was Roberts attempted way of winning. The ruleset made it possible, but other than that, rules had nothing to do with it.
Imho the only reasonable explanation for his behaviour was offered by you earlier in this thread: That he only wanted to create an original precedent using a dispute in order to create base for a rulechange.
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Re: A Dispute Again

Post by RobertJasiek »

oren wrote:Over the years, evidence has pointed to the contrary.


Because you perceive one and only one dispute and nothing but disputes?
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Re: A Dispute Again

Post by RobertJasiek »

p2501 wrote:other than that, rules had nothing to do with it.


Quite contrarily, it is a purpose of their design to provide a last moment when removals are still possible, so that scoring can start at some time "without adjudication".

That he only wanted to create an original precedent using a dispute in order to create base for a rulechange.


The "only" is very wrong. - A rule change was secondary. More important was to seek an official interpretation of the rules at all.
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Re: A Dispute Again

Post by p2501 »

RobertJasiek wrote:
p2501 wrote:other than that, rules had nothing to do with it.

Quite contrarily, it is a purpose of their design to provide a last moment when removals are still possible, so that scoring can start at some time "without adjudication".

Let's just leave it, you obviously have no idea what I am talking about.
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Re: A Dispute Again

Post by Magicwand »

rule doesnt force them to resign but that doesnt justify playing meaningless moves to make the game longer.
it is not a rule but it is eetiquette to resign if there is no chance to win.

if your opponent fills his own territory at the last second of each buyomi... that is within the rule but it isnt right.
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Re: A Dispute Again

Post by RobertJasiek »

Magicwand wrote:rule doesnt force them to resign but that doesnt justify playing meaningless moves to make the game longer.
it is not a rule but it is eetiquette to resign if there is no chance to win.


(The moves were not meaningless, but what you mean is probably: they did not increase the chances of winning in terms of positional judgement.)

(The etiquette is not generally shared, see the many server games with gigantic scores or such if there would not be resignation at the last second.)

Apart from these points, what you say is right. Like many players, I have gone through a development of finding an adjustment of personal balance of when to resign a hopeless game. Probably for a couple of years now, I would have resigned such a game. Not because of discussion about the dispute but because an increasing strategic understanding has led to an on average better insight allowing resignations with on average smaller positional judgement scores. However, PJ scores are only an indicator and not an important decision criterion. What matters for me is rather options, aji, strategic choices, expectations of still possible opposing mistakes and the implied winning probability. If it then happens that the probability drops below my threshold just a few moves before the end, then I still score the game because I find it ridiculous to resign only a few moments before the end.

In 2002, all these fine considerations were not so developed yet. Go has so much to learn, and resignation tuning was not an early years priority for me. So I calibrated it very slowly.
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Re: A Dispute Again

Post by John Fairbairn »

if your opponent fills his own territory at the last second of each buyomi... that is within the rule but it isnt right.


I agree with the thinking behind this, but intriguingly this and similar sentiments can be said to be both correct and incorrect. It is important to know why.

The Japanese rules in particular come with a preamble that is actually part of the rules. But even without a specific preamble, all Oriental rules as published come with an introduction explaining the intent of the rules. The Japanese 1989 rules, for example (though other rulesets are similar), begin with an explanation that these rules "must be applied on the basis of the good sense and mutual trust of the players". This is in the very first paragraph of the body of the rules and so cannot be ignored. It is the very first instruction (the first sentence simply says the rules were established by the Nihon Ki-in and Ki-in). You may fairly argue that "good sense" and "mutual trust" are not defined, but they are there, in first place, and so cannot be ignored.

Therefore, it can be said that silly actions such as filling in one's own territory without good cause go against the rules, i.e this preamble, because the preamble overrides everything else. Morality does not have to be called upon to support this. In that sense, the quote above could therefore be said to be technically incorrect. Of course, if you do call upon morality, in the very limited sense of applying commonly accepted norms of sportsmanship, then the statement is correct.

Now I may easily be wrong about this, because I am relying on memory, but the rules mavens usually ignore such preambles. Of course they have every right to produce their own rule sets that do not use a preamble, but if they are using, criticising or adapting rulesets that do have either such a preamble or a context that explains the spirit behind those specific rules, they are surely honour bound to acknowledge such (con)texts. To repeat, these (cont)texts can be fairly criticised, but they cannot be ignored.

Yet they often are, and not just by Jasiek.

If they are ignored by one player, as seems to be the case in the Mero-Jasiek game, that player, surely, is in effect inventing new rules on the fly. Which is of course unfair to the opponent. If the wording of a game-specific rule appears to be inconsistent with the preamble or context, all the player who spots the inconsistency can honourably do is to point it out. He cannot claim to win on the basis of this unilateral interpretation where the preamble or context gives sufficient grounds to suggest there was a higher intent. He cannot just ignore the preamble.

New readers may need to be reminded that Jasiek likes to repeat that he is a rules expert, but he does not read any of the Oriental languages and so he appears to be largely unfamiliar with the vast context created by Oriental writers who do write fairly extensively on rules themselves. I am presently able to see five books on rules on a bookshelf opposite me, and I have others somewhere else, and of course the number of articles on rules in magazines is enormous (there have been a lot, in particular, in Chinese over the past few years). I hasten to add that this does not mean that Jasiek's research and his criticisms of specific items are in any way worthless, but I do think it means that he should refrain from making unilateral rules changes that ignore this very large context. In my interpretation of the event, this is precisely what he did in his game with Mero. Even in the west there had been plenty of material to indicate that Ing was not primarily concerned with the issue this game threw up. His context was ignored.

This is not intended to attempt to prove that Jasiek's interpretation of the particular rule minus the context was wrong. It is just that there appear to be some new faces in this thread who may find it useful to know that there is indeed a wider context.
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