The Passing of Go superiority in East Asia

[SmoothOper]

No one addressed my rebuttal that while pros generally don't play handicaps in tournaments they probably use them while training in there dojos.

Actually I did, several times

You said something to the effect that Japanese were more successful when they played the traditional handicap less, which I thought was a very interesting point, however I didn't see that it followed that they were some how able to over come traditional handicap training during tournament play.

Furthermore people always cite that Takemiya won with ninrensei as an argument for the traditional placement

I don't think anyone has mentioned this in the thread. I certainly diddn't

This claim that the traditional handicap placement is responsible for the Japanese performance in international professional tournaments is clearly wrong for several reasons.

1. Pros don't play handicaps games against other pros.

2. All pros play 4-4 openings, some more frequently than others, but never-the-less they all play the move, even the Koreans and the Chinese. Check out on GoGoD how many times a corner 4-4 move is made by Chinese and Korean players. Takemiya, who won some international tournaments, almost always played 4-4 moves as Black and White.

3. Koreans play traditional star-point handicaps. So, by some people's reasoning, the Koreans should be weak

4. Because a person doesn't understand how to play with 4-4 point moves doesn't mean the moves are bad.

so it seems like it ought to be established that this may have been only a fluke, and that neither is the Japanese tradition very good or ninrensei a very good strategy since they aren't able to really win with it at the top levels in modern play.

Do you have any statistics to back up this statement? I would like to hear what ez4u has to say about the statistics
Edit:
I also am not sure what the relevance of nirensei is to the discussion we are having.

The chart in this thread. In fact is relevant because it show who has been winning recently in some, but not all international matches.

I've posted this link before, but as it's relevant again you might like this colour-coded table I made which shows the rise of Korean (blue) and then Chinese (red) over the Japanese (green) in international tournaments:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.j.s ... Table.html

P.S. In the book Nie Weiping On Go there is a load of communist propaganda style biography, in which it is clear that the encouragement he received from politicians (until they fell out with Mao, cultural revolution etc.) to get stronger was fuelled by nationalistic pride.

P.P.S. "Japanese are weak because they have 4-4 handicaps" is such a laughable argument I won't even bother to refute it.

[ez4u]

...
Do you have any statistics to back up this statement? I would like to hear what ez4u has to say about the statistics
Edit:
I also am not sure what the relevance of nirensei is to the discussion we are having.

Sorry, I decided this thread is too over-the-top 'trollish' for any attempt at rational discussion.

[speedchase]

You said something to the effect that Japanese were more successful when they played the traditional handicap less, which I thought was a very interesting point, however I didn't see that it followed that they were some how able to over come traditional handicap training during tournament play.

I said they were more successful when they played 4,4 points less in even games. this would suggest that an over reliance on 4,4 joseki is not their cause of playing poorly

2. All pros play 4-4 openings, some more frequently than others, but never-the-less they all play the move, even the Koreans and the Chinese. Check out on GoGoD how many times a corner 4-4 move is made by Chinese and Korean players. Takemiya, who won some international tournaments, almost always played 4-4 moves as Black and White.

Interesting quote but not relevent. The argument presented is not reliant on the Takemiya point. It could be removed completely, it is completely irrelevant.

The chart in this thread. In fact is relevant because it show who has been winning recently in some, but not all international matches.

This chart only demonstrates that Japanese won earlier and Koreans/Chinese won later. This is something we agree on so citing it is irrelevant.
edit: @ez4u: fair enough

[jts]

I think this thread is clear evidence that the control panel makes it too difficult to figure out how to censor people.

[lemmata]

Uberdude: Baek won the latest Asian TV title. The Asian TV title is played under blitz settings. I am not sure if it deserves a place in your table given that it only pits the three winners (+three runner-ups) of the biggest blitz tournaments in CJK against each other. It is a tiny tournament.

Passing thought: Rather than Korean dominance, I think that the period in the middle should be described as Lee Changho's dominance (followed by Lee Sedol's dominance). Gu Li has had a similar effect. Remove any one of those names and everything changes too much.

The large red swath in the 2009-2010 needs interpretation given that Lee Sedol did not play during the last 6 months of 2009. He was also not quite himself after his return, despite winning the BC Card Cup.

I'd say things are a bit even right now, although Chinese dominance seems inevitable to me. There are far more Chinese people, they have government support, the opportunity cost (distribution of potential earnings in outside option professions) of aiming to be a pro is lower, lower median income levels make alternate forms of entertainment comparatively more expensive then they are in JK, go players in China do not necessarily have to worry about two years of military service, etc... I personally attribute Korea's golden age to Lee Changho. In addition to dragging a blue paint roller across Uberdude's table with his wins, his dominance essentially led to a huge boom in Korea. The fact that a military dictator threw a car parade for Cho Hunhyun when he won the Ing Cup also had some positive PR effect as well. At any rate, people like copying successful people, and Lee Changho was successful like no other player before or since. In some sense, I believe that the Koreans were just extremely lucky to have Lee Changho be born in their country and have him trained by their strongest player. One day, perhaps one great Japanese player on par with Lee Changho will be born. That might be all it takes for Japan to return to prominence.

I view these sort of threads with some worry. As we saw, there were some unfounded cultural generalizations being made earlier. Actually, they were more like unfounded caricatures that implied some sort of cultural superiority on the part of one culture over the others. That's pretty disturbing. I look forward to the day when computers dominate go so that the nationalistic proxy dong-measuring contest aspect of international competition is never seen again. Then again...perhaps we will be discussing the ways in which the superiority of Czech mothers makes the Czech Go computers dominate the Mexican ones.

[hyperpape]

No one addressed my rebuttal that while pros generally don't play handicaps in tournaments they probably use them while training in there dojos. Furthermore people always cite that Takemiya won with ninrensei as an argument for the traditional placement, so it seems like it ought to be established that this may have been only a fluke, and that neither is the Japanese tradition very good or ninrensei a very good strategy since they aren't able to really win with it at the top levels in modern play.

You have no idea what you are talking about. One piece of evidence you should have known about: http://senseis.xmp.net/?StandardOpening1.

[hyperpape]

Passing thought: Rather than Korean dominance, I think that the period in the middle should be described as Lee Changho's dominance (followed by Lee Sedol's dominance). Gu Li has had a similar effect. Remove any one of those names and everything changes too much.

There are several good points in your post, but this has come up before and I think it's a mistake. It is true that much of Korea's extreme dominance is due to the two Lees, but that's not the same as saying Korea wasn't ahead. What are the numbers without Lee? Korea is still doing quite well (you also should cut off the best Japanese player to get a fair comparison).

[jts]

Passing thought: Rather than Korean dominance, I think that the period in the middle should be described as Lee Changho's dominance (followed by Lee Sedol's dominance). Gu Li has had a similar effect. Remove any one of those names and everything changes too much.

There are several good points in your post, but this has come up before and I think it's a mistake. It is true that much of Korea's extreme dominance is due to the two Lees, but that's not the same as saying Korea wasn't ahead. What are the numbers without Lee? Korea is still doing quite well (you also should cut off the best Japanese player to get a fair comparison).

I took his point to be more about network effects and the power of exemplars to inspire, rather than about applying the law of small numbers to the two dozen people who have won these big titles. (You may be familiar with the geographical clumpiness of philosophers...)

[lemmata]

Passing thought: Rather than Korean dominance, I think that the period in the middle should be described as Lee Changho's dominance (followed by Lee Sedol's dominance). Gu Li has had a similar effect. Remove any one of those names and everything changes too much.

There are several good points in your post, but this has come up before and I think it's a mistake. It is true that much of Korea's extreme dominance is due to the two Lees, but that's not the same as saying Korea wasn't ahead. What are the numbers without Lee? Korea is still doing quite well (you also should cut off the best Japanese player to get a fair comparison).

I took his point to be more about network effects and the power of exemplars to inspire, rather than about applying the law of small numbers to the two dozen people who have won these big titles. (You may be familiar with the geographical clumpiness of philosophers...)

jts' interpretation is close to what I intended. Furthermore, playing strong players frequently makes you strong as well. Seo Bongsoo, who essentially taught himself go through gambling matches, went as far as to say that Cho Hunhyun is his go teacher and credited his many matches against Cho for his own success in international matches. That said, going from extreme dominance to "still doing well" also seems like quite a big difference to me. Nevertheless, I do agree with the broader theme of hyperpape's post, which I think is that we should be very careful.

[Mef]

free handicaps....weaker Japanese Player....four other pages I knew I shouldn't read but still did...etc...

This whole handicap stone, 4-4 point bit is nonsense and everyone knows it. There have been numerous rigorous studies that have conclusively proven that major determining factor in the strength of professional go players is national interest in professional baseball. I really don't want to go into it since I'm sure everyone on this forum is familiar with the work....but just in case there are some non-go players browsing the forum I will go through the highlights:

Japan has state-sponsored go, and is generally considered to have been producing the strongest players in the world up up through the 20th century. Up to this point there is no professional baseball in Japan. This is exemplified by the Honinbo house, who in 1908 was put under the charge of Honinbo Shusai...up to this point they have been essentially dominant in the go world. In 1933 Honinbo Shusai plays an upstart challenger Go Seigen in what would later be dubbed "The Game of the Century" - he wins, but barely. Less than a year later, the Greater Japan Tokyo Baseball Club (Japan's first professional baseball organization) starts , this is the beginning of the end for Japanese go. Over the next few years more Japanese professional baseball leagues have started and the influence is so great that by 1938 Shusai has completely retired. Professional baseball is still in its infancy in Japan and as such their go is still top-notch for decades, however there is a major turning point yet again -- in 1986 international play begins between Japanese baseball teams and Major League Baseball teams from the US. The strongest players are hit first and hardest, as exemplified by breaking Cho Chikun's winning streak in the Kisei title. He will not fully recover for nine years. The effect is so pronounced that by the time the first Ing Cup happens in 1988 no Japanese challengers can make the final. As baseball continues to grow in Japan we see Korea dominate through the late 90s, but unfortunately they learn of baseball's ill effects. Even though Korea has had professional baseball since the 1980s, it was only in the early 2000s, that the leagues were deemed strong enough to see significant poaching by the American leagues (Sang-Hoon Lee in 2000; Sun-Woo Kim in 2001; Hee Seop Choi, Jae Weong Seo, and Jung Keun Bong in 2002) this not-so-coincidentally aligns with the time period where Lee ChangHo went from invincible to merely mortal. Since then as baseball has continued to grow in Korea, their performance has leveled out and China (who's baseball leagues are not as strong) has begun to move into center stage.

It is also worth noting that the United States has had a very strong professional baseball program for over a century, and has had relatively little success on the international go stage. Recently there was a professional go program started for the AGA, and it has been largely attributed to the fact that professional gridiron football (NFL) and professional basketball (NBA) are stealing the audience from professional baseball (MLB). If the US hopes to truly compete on a global scale, we can only hope that baseball takes a backseat to other sports.

[hyperpape]

Lemmata, Jts: that makes total sense. Btw: I do think that "still does well" actually translates to "still is ahead of Japan, starting in 1993 (1995?)", but I don't have my counts from before.

[SmoothOper]

... upstart challenger Go Seigen in what would later be dubbed "The Game of the Century" - he wins, but barely. ... this is the beginning of the end for Japanese go. The strongest players are hit first and hardest, as exemplified by breaking Cho Chikun's winning streak in the Kisei title. He will not fully recover for nine years. ...

I think it is interesting to note that Go Seigen was Chinese and that Cho Chikun was Korean, perhaps Japan for what ever reason can no longer attract the top talent.

[Alguien]

[message to everyone here but the OP]

I go away for a few days and you keep going with this topic?

I'm disappointed. When someone defends a position obviously false or unreasonable, with no proof other than fallacies or insistence, it's either a troll or a kid (in the intellectual maturity meaning of the term). In either case, it's best to end it with "you're wrong" or with a simple silence.

Do any of you think someone can sincerely believe a professional go player may not know (to ridiculously tiny details) any go concept that you may fathom, just because he's Japanese?

The same will to teach that pushes you to answer the people who come and want to learn to play, which a small community like go really needs, also pushes you to make someone understand where he's wrong. However, that makes you extremely vulnerable to the simple concept of trolling.

At some point you must see it's unreasonable to answer with logic to someone who believes the sun is an alien spaceship.


OTOH, we're all bored from time to time, and answering trolls is often funny; reading what convoluted path they find to dodge our reason is entertaining. So I'll let you to your circus.

And if the OP goes away and you need more fuel, I'm ready to try to convince you Korean players are better at fighting because they use single convex stones. Or Chinese because go is communistic. Or that Americans will be the next champions because or their traditional racism between blacks and whites. Or Canadians, because they have good spruce wood. Or Spaniards, because they build good swords, required to make the lines in a goban.

[Mef]

And if the OP goes away and you need more fuel, I'm ready to try to convince you Korean players are better at fighting because they use single convex stones. Or Chinese because go is communistic. Or that Americans will be the next champions because or their traditional racism between blacks and whites. Or Canadians, because they have good spruce wood. Or Spaniards, because they build good swords, required to make the lines in a goban.

Those arguments are all hogwash, it's baseball and everyone knows it. I've attached a graph to yet again illustrate this point (albeit in context of the US go, because the statistics are more readily available to me).

In this case I've used championship game viewership (World series and Super Bowl) as a proxy for national interest in the sport (Y-axis is in millions of viewers, the differential uses the right side axis). Notice how once the NFL begins to consistently achieve parity with MLB the US finally produces it's first professional go player. In the late 70s / early 80s we see a strong surge for the NFL -- right when Michael Redmond was training as an Insei in Japan. By the time we get to the late 80s/early 90's we see a peak in the difference which just so happens to correspond with strong tournament performances from Jimmmy Cha (who had been living in the US for nearly 15 years at this point) and Michael Redmond (who was well on his way to becoming a 9p).

[SmoothOper]

[message to everyone here but the OP]

I go away for a few days and you keep going with this topic?

I'm disappointed. When someone defends a position obviously false or unreasonable, with no proof other than fallacies or insistence, it's either a troll or a kid (in the intellectual maturity meaning of the term). In either case, it's best to end it with "you're wrong" or with a simple silence.

Do any of you think someone can sincerely believe a professional go player may not know (to ridiculously tiny details) any go concept that you may fathom, just because he's Japanese?

The same will to teach that pushes you to answer the people who come and want to learn to play, which a small community like go really needs, also pushes you to make someone understand where he's wrong. However, that makes you extremely vulnerable to the simple concept of trolling.

At some point you must see it's unreasonable to answer with logic to someone who believes the sun is an alien spaceship.


OTOH, we're all bored from time to time, and answering trolls is often funny; reading what convoluted path they find to dodge our reason is entertaining. So I'll let you to your circus.

And if the OP goes away and you need more fuel, I'm ready to try to convince you Korean players are better at fighting because they use single convex stones. Or Chinese because go is communistic. Or that Americans will be the next champions because or their traditional racism between blacks and whites. Or Canadians, because they have good spruce wood. Or Spaniards, because they build good swords, required to make the lines in a goban.

I think people may be taking the whole "Board Game" concept a little to seriously, I mean just because you play go doesn't make you smart or anything, any way isn't their a thread about trolls somewhere, and why don't you go post on that topic. And well the Japanese are definitely doing not as well, and whether or not this is due to their inflated traditional handicap system remains an open question. Some people seem to value the traditional handicap system very much others, like the Chinese not so much.