I took three handicap and rescued 0.5 points

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Sun May 30, 2010 8:40 am

I am satisfied with my play here (move 70, 116 and 166 could have been better...), although I had to play like half the game in 30sec SD, so I think there are some overly or unnecessary defensive moves.

The game was played with approx. 20 minutes per player (time was granted at the beginning because we overlooked the time settings) and white is a ~2kyu player.

Comments, hints, ideas and critic is highly encouraged =)

zecv · Post by **zecv** » Mon May 31, 2010 10:29 am

I don't have much time, so here are some things I caught immediately:

m. 14 - extend at j17 FOR SURE. you can see w j17 is huge

m.61 - hane at e11

m.74 - r15 then pincer

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:59 am

I'm not sure, if I can follow your suggestions. I guess m.# indicates the move number, but only the first makes really sense to me.

I chose to not let me push further along the third line, because I found the extension on the left side more important. Of course, he could now capture two stones and make a nice wall at the top, but I think the left side was still bigger. Especially because he ended in Gote, so I also could restrict his top by enclosing my corner on this side.

At move 61 White should have played the Hane at D11? Or should I have played something differently?

Sadly, at move 74 I am totally clueless, what you could have meant. R15 is already occupied by White and where should I pincer?

gaius · Post by **gaius** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:56 am

What zecv meant is this (his move numbers seem to be a bit wrong):

- Move 10 MUST be at j17. You can NEVER allow your opponent to push you down so easily. If there are two lines of stones like the diagramme below, you must either hane or extend (a or b in the diagramme). Don't tenuki, it is just too big. If you don't believe me here, it might interest you to study Fundamentals of Go by Kageyama.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ . O O . . . . . . $$ . . . O O O a . . $$ . . X X X X b . . $$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]

- Same thing from move 38 onwards. The hane there is sooo huge for both sides! Once white gets the double hane (which he should've played much earlier), he wins so much compared to you pushing him down.
- At move 66, if you want to pincer, you have to kick first at R15. Otherwise, it is too easy for him to settle himself by attaching as he did in the game. You cannot attack if he can settle himself easily.

Allow me to add one more thing: please never play a peep like move 48 again! I understand that you want to make him heavy before attacking, and sometimes a peep can help you accomplish that goal. BUT:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ . . . . . . . $$ . . . O X . . $$ . . X O . . . $$ . . . O . . . $$ . . . . . . .[/go]

This diagramme is another basic shape. The broken keima. It is BAD for black! Do you recognise the shape in the game? Instead of D7, you might think of C6, C7, B6; all reasonable fighting moves. But creating a broken keima here is too costly (just look at how easily white swallows the stone anyway and you'll see my point...)

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:22 am

gaius wrote:What zecv meant is this (his move numbers seem to be a bit wrong):

- Move 10 MUST be at j17. You can NEVER allow your opponent to push you down so easily. If there are two lines of stones like the diagramme below, you must either hane or extend (a or b in the diagramme). Don't tenuki, it is just too big. If you don't believe me here, it might interest you to study Fundamentals of Go by Kageyama.
$$c
$$ . O O . . . . . .
$$ . . . O O O a . .
$$ . . X X X X b . .
$$ . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c $$ . O O . . . . . . $$ . . . O O O a . . $$ . . X X X X b . . $$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Yeah, I understood this. But still, if I had extend, White would have had his extension along the left side and compared to this I think the Hane is small. With my extension there, the whole wall is restricted, "almost" nullified and although I rejected something for which Kageyama would expel me from his school, I don't think White's resulting position is that great. Especially since the side has an open skirt, aswell.
So I have the feeling his whole choice of Joseki was more or less for nothing.

In my opinion, fundamentals are just another word for proverbs ; ) Never follow them blindly!

gaius wrote:- Same thing from move 38 onwards. The hane there is sooo huge for both sides! Once white gets the double hane (which he should've played much earlier), he wins so much compared to you pushing him down.

Hm, yeah that really hurts. I think, move 44 was a bit too passive. Maybe I should have go back and extend to Q8. Hane would have worked aswell, true.

gaius wrote:- At move 66, if you want to pincer, you have to kick first at R15. Otherwise, it is too easy for him to settle himself by attaching as he did in the game. You cannot attack if he can settle himself easily.

Fine point! Didn't occure to me ^^

gaius wrote:Allow me to add one more thing: please never play a peep like move 48 again! I understand that you want to make him heavy before attacking, and sometimes a peep can help you accomplish that goal. BUT:
$$c
$$ . . . . . . .
$$ . . . O X . .
$$ . . X O . . .
$$ . . . O . . .
$$ . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c $$ . . . . . . . $$ . . . O X . . $$ . . X O . . . $$ . . . O . . . $$ . . . . . . .[/go]

This diagramme is another basic shape. The broken keima. It is BAD for black! Do you recognise the shape in the game? Instead of D7, you might think of C6, C7, B6; all reasonable fighting moves. But creating a broken keima here is too costly (just look at how easily white swallows the stone anyway and you'll see my point...)

I'll remember, thank you!

amnal · Post by **amnal** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:29 am

SoDesuNe wrote:
gaius wrote:What zecv meant is this (his move numbers seem to be a bit wrong):

- Move 10 MUST be at j17. You can NEVER allow your opponent to push you down so easily. If there are two lines of stones like the diagramme below, you must either hane or extend (a or b in the diagramme). Don't tenuki, it is just too big. If you don't believe me here, it might interest you to study Fundamentals of Go by Kageyama.
$$c
$$ . O O . . . . . .
$$ . . . O O O a . .
$$ . . X X X X b . .
$$ . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c $$ . O O . . . . . . $$ . . . O O O a . . $$ . . X X X X b . . $$ . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Yeah, I understood this. But still, if I had extend, White would have had his extension along the left side and compared to this I think the Hane is small. With my extension there, the whole wall is restricted, "almost" nullified and although I rejected something for which Kageyama would expel me from his school, I don't think White's resulting position is that great. Especially since the side has an open skirt, aswell.
So I have the feeling his whole choice of Joseki was more or less for nothing.

In my opinion, fundamentals are just another word for proverbs ; ) Never follow them blindly!

In *my* opinion, you should listen to the player 5 stones stronger than you.

I think you're plain wrong about this position, it's a complex issue of positional judgement. White's wall is not really nullified by your move - in fact, it's made much stronger, because it can now shut in the group at the top. This will let it radiate influence along both sides, and give white strong moves against your upper right corner. It will also let white attack your left side stone, or at least make you spend moves defending it.

It's hard to illustrate, but I think you're wrong about this. The way to win is not to leave weaknesses trying to catch up to your opponents perceived profit - that's just a way to let him kill your first group when you aren't looking. Instead, it's to play solidly, so that you have no problems invading white's 'moyo' if necessary.

EDIT: I suppose one way to look at it is, if you hane he gets a wall with an extension. This is the beginnings of a moyo. When you play on eh left side, you let him take massive thickness. This is much more powerful than the wall - he doesn't *need* to make a moyo any more, he can use his thickness to jump into your positions with impunity.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:34 am

So I have the feeling his whole choice of Joseki was more or less for nothing.

Sure, but you aren't asking yourself the right question. You're asking yourself "does the final result look ok for me?". You should be asking "could the final result have looked better for me?". With your lower left hoshi, you can restrict White's development anyway on the left, and you don't want to risk throwing a stone into the middle of his wall. Have you actually assess the results coming from Black haneing instead? The improvement on the top edge is huge compared to the game result. Sure, you got a better left side result because of getting another stone there, but that top edge was a disaster.

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:55 am

amnal
As said, I understand this, not because some higher ranked player told so or read it in a book, but because I can follow your argumentation.
Still, in the same time, I don't see White's super result _here_ - in this particular game. Neither was my top left group in mortal danger (at least that's what I read ; ) ) nor did I created another weak group. Of course my extension will most likely fall under attack but so will it be then. White should get less points out of it, compared to extending there himself.
White's attack against my upper right corner was strong, I admit, but it was strong because I played wrong locally.

topazg
Good point, I didn't think about this. Hmm, still, psychologically, I feel far more comfortable with not granting White his Moyo than losing the top.
I tend to lose track, if everything seems to go accordingly to my opponent's plan, and on top I hate Moyos ^^

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:01 am

SoDesuNe wrote:topazg
Good point, I didn't think about this. Hmm, still, psychologically, I feel far more comfortable with not granting White his Moyo than losing the top.
I tend to lose track, if everything seems to go accordingly to my opponent's plan, and on top I hate Moyos ^^

Yeah, it is hard to feel comfortable with it, but I think it's worth it here because of the solid cash prize from that top edge.

Actually, if you play a few games with this person, these low handicap games are a perfect platform for moyo games, which in turn will get you more comfortable with them, which in turn will make you a stronger Go player.

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:33 am

I can just repeat myself: You must be a good teacher, indeed =D

Thank you for your explanations!

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