I think one reason we may be a long way from a casual go mentality is that we don't agree on what would constitute it. I would like to think you could talk and laugh even in a (fairly) serious game, but I would never want "oh, can I take that back?" to be a socially acceptable question to ask, even in amateur blind go.

At my old club, it was often offered, not asked for. Both players look at a move, laugh, then one says to the other "take that back".

_________________
Occupy Babel!

Ditto, and I do prefer the casual approach to game results - I don't think it equates to a casual approach to the game itself though. I think you can still be very serious about studying and getting better without having to compromise a laid back approach to what you can do in the games themselves. You can always refuse the take back if you think you'll learn a better lesson from it (or equivalent reason)

I completely understand your thought on this, mainly because I used to be the one over-analyzing every move after the game before I realized just how bored and annoyed it made my friends. On the other hand, I have a number of opponents who like to analyze games right afterwards.

Nowadays, we tend to keep it brief, to a point where we can say, “I think the game was lost here,” or “This move had to be a big mistake (agree, disagree).” It’s a productive review that usually lasts about 5 minutes, and we tend to do it only when it was a serious game. For people who aren’t interested in reviewing, I will just make a mental note of some place where I think I made a mistake and look at it later. No big deal – I think this is a good way to handle things.

Take backs exist in every game. Whether or not it is acceptable just depends on who you are playing. In casual games with a friend who is okay with it, no problem. There are a finite number of moves in a situation so when take backs are involved, the other player’s chance to win by knockout (we all love KO’s, admit it) is lowered so I would argue that it removes a bit of the excitement from the game.

_________________
Ko is the best solution.
With Ko, I can keep eating and drinking until I am full.

Visit >>>Koosh's Study Journal<<<

Or for another club member to say anything about the game I'm playing.
Or, if you're my opponent, to criticize my moves while we're playing rather than in review.
Or to text on your phone constantly during our game.

I think I made a mistake even mentioning "take backs". Take backs are not the issue, its the overall attitude towards the game and its outcome -- people not wanting to lose.

Take backs can go too far the other direction too. I played a game once where my opponent wanted to "take back" a move to explore an alternate variation in the middle of the game. I didn't realize that's what he was doing at first, so I was just playing the variation as the new main line (not trying to remember how to get back to 30 moves earlier). After 10 or more such take backs throughout the game and over 2 hours later -- I was tired and probably had a 7-3 record against this kid all within this single game. If I ever remember who he is, I'll never play him again

Sounds like you instinctively want to play serious games, except for the third, which is just about general etiquette.

_________________
Occupy Babel!

I realize this thread is a couple months old but I've been away from the forums (and Go in general) for a while.

I'd like to weigh in on a few points. I definitely understand the feeling of the topic title. I've done that way too often. I have anxiety issues when it comes to Go for some reason. Whether it's online or face to face I get nervous (if you've seen Hikaru no Go, think of the scene when Hikaru and Akira are about to play in the middle school team tournament). Online it's easy to run away instead of facing my anxiety, at the club or a tournament, in front of my opponent, I have to face it and I think that's better for me. I want to play more but it is quite hard to face a fear when avoiding it is as easy as not clicking a button on the computer.

I also found the idea of improvement vs enjoyment interesting. I think everyone enjoys improving. The disparity, from what's been said, seems to be in the attitude that people who are actively trying to improve are more likely to take towards the game. Playing seriously instead of casually, wanting to review the game in detail afterwards, and wanting to focus instead of having a conversation during the game don't seem, to me, to be bad things; but I'd place myself among the players who are actively trying to improve. That's not to say that I don't enjoy the game. I love seeing high level games and I love playing, which is why I want to improve.


This quote seems odd to me though. I've always seen tournaments, in any game/event, to be competitive and winning and losing are important in a competition by nature. I know, with some tournament formats, that it can be impossible to win the whole tournament if you don't enter at at least a certain rank but if that's the case I'd consider winning all my games or finishing with the best record in my division to be the goal. If not, what's the differences between playing in a tournament and playing at the club, why enter the tournament? Or did I misunderstand what you meant?

Yeah, I possibly misspoke there and wasn't very careful about my choice of wording, so you have to read that statement in the fuller context of my earlier post.

In an actual tournament, yeah, I'm doing my best to play to win.

But I don't play in tournaments any more, cause I'm not interested in trying to win them. I don't remember the last tournament I've played in.

Oh, okay. I understood your points about why you didn't like to play competitively but then you mentioned tournaments and it seemed a little odd. I get it now. I hope you can find people with the same attitude to the game or a compromise with those who approach it differently.

When I played in tournaments, I played to measure myself against people playing their best. Winning was great and I played to win but it was not the goal. I no longer need that and simply play for the love of the game.

_________________
Michael Dobbins; Dragon: mdobbins, KGS: mgd, AGA#: 4253,
My Website

I also want to just play and teach. But that would be only because I gave up on improving... lets be honest, if you don't limit yourself you always want to improve, so do it! The reason you don't want to play or only want to teach partly is because "I've hit my limit" or "I'm just not good enough, I'm better at teaching anyway." . Throw those kind of thoughts out! Teaching is fine, but anyone can improve at any age or rank.

This is probably intimately related to:



If you shift your thoughts away from the importance of winning (in general), your anxiety issues may dissolve, too.

I think the word "fun" is also debatable. There is a video game designer I really respect named Jonathan Blow who talked about "fun." He said he used to play very, very competitive video games, And he would not say they were "fun." They were far from what you would think of when you think of fun, actually. They were mean, difficult, punishing and frustrating. And playing them would often get very emotional and heated and if an outsider looked in, Fun would be the last word on their mind to describe what they saw.

So I think a lot of studying Go is like that for people. They want to have Fun. And for them, Reading books about the game and studying and all this isn't playing, so it's not fun. They don't want to have to take classes on a game just to feel like they can play it. It also works in the reverse, People might feel like they can't play at all if they don't do all this study first.
But just like with the competitive video games mentioned above, There is something rewarding and pleasurable people get from this. I don't know if I would call it "fun" it's such an umbrella term to describe anything we do that is enjoyable. But it is rewarding.

As for me, Why I don't play more than I do, I pretty much have it narrowed down. I dislike online Go (which seems like the best and fastest way to get strong) And I do feel bad when I lose. A full game of Go can take a long time, And if I invest all this time in this game, then I feel like I better darn well win. So when I lose, I do tend to take it poorly, and feel like I'll never get better.

_________________
Lose 1,000 games? Challenge Accepted.

The second was about tournaments. I don't view every game as being about winning and losing but if I enter a tournament it is. Normally I just try to play the best I can, whether I win or lose I can learn something from the game that way.

My question is this: Are you REALLY playing out of love for the game? Or are you playing to get a better rank, and therefore, more recognition?

Where do you get your self worth from? From being compared with others? Or from learning the game?

This is an important distinction. If you are scared of not being recognized, then you will not be truly strong. Learning to be strong is a matter of understanding the game. It has very little to do with actually winning.

One of the things I really enjoy about the game is that it has a very solid ranking system. I love playing, but one of the things I love about playing is going up in rank. Its very quick to see improvment as a quantified number vs other games where you might only be able to have a subjective idea based on how you did at tournament a vs tournament b.

Though with most games, after a particularly bad loss, or a few in a row Im usualy done for a while, and probably will come back to it the next day. Or after a break

That's a hard question to answer. I can say it's the only thing that I've never been bored with. I can also say that I feel like time I spend playing or studying Go is time well spent. I can't say that it's always fun because it's not, it can be hard work.

Of course getting stronger doesn't mean winning more, since, unless you're the best, you'll be playing against stronger and stronger players.

Anxiety issues aren't always rational. I think it's something I just have to face and force myself through.

What is "truly strong"? I agree with the sentiment that it's good to like playing go for playing go - and not to get recognition.

But practically speaking, there are many ways to get stronger at the game, regardless of your motives. It just may seem shallow and unfun if you don't play because you love the game for the game itself.

I figure it's like losing weight by jogging. If I love to jog, it's a lot more fun to jog, I lose weight in the process, and it's a win-win scenario all around.

If I hate jogging, it might suck to go out and force myself to run. I might hate it and give up. If I am dogged enough, I might be able to make it through and end up losing all the weight I wanted to lose.

In both cases, it's possible to lose weight. The former is easier to mantain, more fun, yada, yada, yada. But the result is possible in either case...

So we haven't really defined "truly strong" in this thread, but I'm doubtful that you can't get "truly strong" from shallow motivation, or even if you hate the game.

It'll just suck more, and maybe you'll regret the time you spent in vanity.

_________________
be immersed

I think "truly strong" is different for every person. I was playing a game with a 4k friend of mine, and he invited his 1D friend to help review the game. The 1D asked me my strength, and I told him I didn't know, But i took an online test where you solve problems and it gives you an estimate, so I told him it was very roughly AGA 12k. He said "Well 12k is not weak, you're almost a SDK!"

I was glad for his compliment, But to me, "strong" is in the Dan ranks. If I ever manage to hit 1D I would probably consider myself to be a "good" go player, Even though 1D is the lowest of the Dan ranks, It is so far above where you start, that for me, It is a good level to shoot for and if you are a 1D you should be proud of yourself.

I think we can all agree that a pro is strong.
But is "truly strong" the strength of someone like Shusaku, Go Seigan, Lee Sedal or others who advance the game as a whole? It seems very easy to judge yourself against the best in the world and say "Man, I stink at this game!" I tend to do that with everything I take an interest in and I often overlook any actual abilities that I do have, Because I'm always looking at the abilities that I don't have.

_________________
Lose 1,000 games? Challenge Accepted.