Thinking + Improvement

For lessons, as well as threads about specific moves, and anything else worth studying.
User avatar
Bonobo
Oza
Posts: 2224
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:39 pm
Rank: OGS 9k
GD Posts: 0
OGS: trohde
Universal go server handle: trohde
Location: Germany
Has thanked: 8262 times
Been thanked: 924 times
Contact:

Re: Thinking + Improvement

Post by Bonobo »

RobertJasiek wrote:
emeraldemon wrote:Clearly, this calls for a Robert Jasiek vs. Magicwand Malkovich!

+1

Malkovich games are out of the question for me because I do not have the time to write books-filling amounts of descriptions of thinking per move.

I dare say that nobody would expect “book-filling amounts of descriptions of thinking” from anybody in a Malkovich game.


Malkovich games with annotating only the most interesting thoughts would not do justice to my thinking.

IMNSHO, annotating only the most interesting thoughts does’t do justice to anybody’s thinking. Still they do Malkovich. And still the spectators enjoy and learn from this. Because it’s great edutainment.

Read my books if you want to know (so far part of) my thinking in detail.
I am currently reading one of your books. Still I’d like to see a Malkovich game of yours, no matter how terse the comments ;)

Could also well be the best promotion for your books, BTW.
“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS? :)
Time
Dies in gote
Posts: 35
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:32 am
Rank: Not Good
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Something
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Thinking + Improvement

Post by Time »

Many of Laszlo Polgar's training techniques implicitly rely on people being able to learn subconsciously, and I'd say his daughters turned out pretty good at chess.

Maybe you should have some children and train them to be go prodigies to prove your theories.
RobertJasiek
Judan
Posts: 6273
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:54 pm
GD Posts: 0
Been thanked: 797 times
Contact:

Re: Thinking + Improvement

Post by RobertJasiek »

Bonobo wrote:Still I’d like to see a Malkovich game of yours


I do not have enough time for it (I need the time for writing books and teaching), not even for a sparsely commented one, not even if go diagram editing here would be much simpler. I could only create fun mones and fun comments, and that would have too little to do with real thinking.
Kirby
Honinbo
Posts: 9553
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:04 pm
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Has thanked: 1583 times
Been thanked: 1707 times

Re: Thinking + Improvement

Post by Kirby »

RobertJasiek wrote:
Bonobo wrote:Still I’d like to see a Malkovich game of yours


I do not have enough time for it (I need the time for writing books and teaching), not even for a sparsely commented one, not even if go diagram editing here would be much simpler. I could only create fun mones and fun comments, and that would have too little to do with real thinking.


But you have the time for other types of forum posts - even arguments on the forum. There's even time to call out my meta-discussion! Is this time better spent than making posts more directly related to go via a Malkovich game?
be immersed
RobertJasiek
Judan
Posts: 6273
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:54 pm
GD Posts: 0
Been thanked: 797 times
Contact:

Re: Thinking + Improvement

Post by RobertJasiek »

Kirby wrote:time for other types of forum posts


Other types of posts are recreation - Malcovich posts would be work. I can work for only a limited total time per day; work spent on Malcovich I would need to spend less on earning money.
Kirby
Honinbo
Posts: 9553
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:04 pm
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Has thanked: 1583 times
Been thanked: 1707 times

Re: Thinking + Improvement

Post by Kirby »

RobertJasiek wrote:
Kirby wrote:time for other types of forum posts


Other types of posts are recreation - Malcovich posts would be work. I can work for only a limited total time per day; work spent on Malcovich I would need to spend less on earning money.


I see. Forum posts are indeed recreational, aren't they? I never really thought of Malkovich posts as "work" persay, but maybe that is an indication that I should have tried harder.
be immersed
hyperpape
Tengen
Posts: 4382
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 3:24 pm
Rank: AGA 3k
GD Posts: 65
OGS: Hyperpape 4k
Location: Caldas da Rainha, Portugal
Has thanked: 499 times
Been thanked: 727 times

Re: Thinking + Improvement

Post by hyperpape »

Yes. As recreation, forum posts are often junk food, but they're still recreation. But I agonize over my Malkovich game.
Kirby
Honinbo
Posts: 9553
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:04 pm
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Kirby
Tygem: 커비라고해
Has thanked: 1583 times
Been thanked: 1707 times

Re: Thinking + Improvement

Post by Kirby »

hyperpape wrote:Yes. As recreation, forum posts are often junk food, but they're still recreation. But I agonize over my Malkovich game.


Well, I've agonized over forum discussions in the past, too, but I see your point ;-)
be immersed
NoSkill
Lives with ko
Posts: 296
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:20 pm
Rank: 1D
GD Posts: 0
KGS: NoSkill
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 33 times

Re: Thinking + Improvement

Post by NoSkill »

I feel like when I learn things like certain patterns and fuseki it helps me play a little better, but if they break it in a new way I'm weak for that time. But when I play with it for awhile I learn to deal with it it helps me.

Some things like vital points and invasion lines cannot be explained and I would consider subconscious knowledge.

I feel like as you learn new concepts you learn things that you think about mentally for awhile, but when you forget them you still do them subconsciously. Also if you think about go without being by a go board, ie: on the train or in the shower you might learn some things without being able to explain what you learn.
hyperpape
Tengen
Posts: 4382
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 3:24 pm
Rank: AGA 3k
GD Posts: 65
OGS: Hyperpape 4k
Location: Caldas da Rainha, Portugal
Has thanked: 499 times
Been thanked: 727 times

Re: Thinking + Improvement

Post by hyperpape »

Kirby wrote:
hyperpape wrote:Yes. As recreation, forum posts are often junk food, but they're still recreation. But I agonize over my Malkovich game.


Well, I've agonized over forum discussions in the past, too, but I see your point ;-)
Me too. But it's rare to spend a lot of time on a forum post. Typically, it's when I'm apologizing.
User avatar
Tami
Lives in gote
Posts: 558
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:05 pm
GD Posts: 0
IGS: Reisei 1d
Online playing schedule: When I can
Location: Carlisle, England
Has thanked: 196 times
Been thanked: 342 times

Re: Thinking + Improvement

Post by Tami »

I`m a bit frightened of entering this discussion, but I`ll try to be an angel...

Is it not possible that the subconconscious mind is simply a lot more efficient at handling long-term memories and understanding than the conscious mind? By studying very carefully and practicing hard and deliberately for a long time, a lot of processes become automatic.

At some point you have to learn to trust what you have consciously trained into your subconscious mind, if you are to be able to function.

I`m better at composing and performing music than I am at go, but the process seems to be more or less the same. I`ve spent countless hours studying great music by masters like Schuetz, Josquin, Byrd and Palestrina, and I`ve learned to internalise their compositional principles, so that I can write reasonable pastiches (my choral music is published by chichestermusicpress.co.uk if you want to hear it). I don`t need to think consciously about many points now, because I have already been through that as a student. However, there is much more to composing music than simply knowing a few stylistic traits and techniques - try as I might, I will never compose something on this level of genius:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUAgAF4Khmg

Likewise, I no longer need to consciously think what note corresponds to what fret on my guitar, because I have already done the work over many hours. I reckon that I have become pretty familiar with the contents of my hero Jimi Hendrix`s style, but again, I despair of writing a "Little Wing".

Further, I can speak in everyday Japanese without having to remind myself of the grammar, because I have practiced it. Students and friends of mine, who have not practiced English grammar, often have little cogs and wheels visibly whirring behind their eyes as they speak English.

So, unless go is absolutely unique, I think the same thing must happen. You study thousands of examples and practice principles deliberately, and over time you build the ability to come up with good moves to match the situation you see. However, the game is extraordinarily difficult, and no scene is ever exactly like another, and so there is nothing else for it but read carefully, to invoke and weigh principles to guide your decisions, and to play what seems right. With about 20,000-30,000 more hours of experience in the bag, Cho Chikun is bound to be more successful at doing this than somebody like me. However, even he must feel baffled a lot of the time (I saw a quote from him about knowing only a small percentage of what there is to know, but I can't recall its provenance).

As I see it, there is a tension between individual situations and general principles. General principles can be found out through logic (for instance, it is easier to make territory in the corner than in the centre) and through experience, but beyond that every game is different, and frequently you have to decide between applying one principle and another.

Again, I don`t think anybody would seriously deny that knowledge is important, but surely there is a tremendous difference betweem memorised knowledge and considered knowledge. If all you had is memorised knowledge, then you`d be better off trying to figure out a position for yourself (I believe Kageyama said words to that effect regarding joseki). What`s the good of knowing a word or a joseki if you did not know when it did not work? Considered knowledge - i.e., knowledge which is understood or at least given some real thought - can be used appropriately, with purpose and design and creativity, and the more of that you have, the better. However, as reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_and_mathematics should make you realise, there is a limit to what you can accomplish through gaining knowledge. Go is quite hard, you see.

This is why I feel increasingly sceptical about Robert`s methodology. He seems to have a principle for everything, but I think the more principles you create, the more likely they are simply to break down in the face of go`s extreme complexity. For example, the concept of being "N-alive" seems very dubious to me, because there are too many possible confounding variables.

My choice is to learn from the masters, who humble themselves before its vastness, and try to play each position on its own terms. They are stronger than us because not only because they know a great deal more and are more skilled at applying principles, but because they know better their limitations, too. Jonathan Rowson quoted words from Nabakov concerning the "abysmal depths of chess"; since go is exponentially more complicated than even that terrifically rich and beautiful game, imagine how much more abysmal its depths.

You can learn a great deal, train a great deal, but thinking is something you have to do for yourself. Nobody can build you a mind.
Learn the "tea-stealing" tesuji! Cho Chikun demonstrates here:
John Fairbairn
Oza
Posts: 3724
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:09 am
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 4672 times

Re: Thinking + Improvement

Post by John Fairbairn »

Tami

FWIW, from my recent reading, the only thing I'd say that needs changing in what you wrote is that "the subconconscious mind is simply a lot more efficient" may be better put as "the subconconscious mind is simply a lot more efficient".
RobertJasiek
Judan
Posts: 6273
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:54 pm
GD Posts: 0
Been thanked: 797 times
Contact:

Re: Thinking + Improvement

Post by RobertJasiek »

Tami wrote:Is it not possible that the subconconscious mind is simply a lot more efficient at handling long-term memories and understanding than the conscious mind?


1) Memories: greater efficiency is possible (smaller efficiency is also possible, we do not really know). The question is whether all the relevant information can be raised to the conscious mind whenever necessary.

2) Understanding: We do not know the reasoning of the subconscious mind; therefore we cannot be sure that it would be more efficient if it should be.

At some point you have to learn to trust what you have consciously trained into your subconscious mind, if you are to be able to function.


Being able to function as a body is something different from being able to make go-move-decisions.

I`m better at composing and performing music than I am at go, but the process seems to be more or less the same.


No, because performing music requires a skill absolutely not needed for go: physical performance.

can speak in everyday Japanese without having to remind myself of the grammar, because I have practiced it.


Speaking a language and go-decision-making are different.

So, unless go is absolutely unique, I think the same thing must happen.


Go need not be absolutely unique for being relevantly different from performing music or speaking a language.

there is nothing else for it but read carefully, to invoke and weigh principles to guide your decisions, and to play what seems right.


In situations with insufficient reasoning, one must play what seems right. In situations with sufficient reasoning, one can play what IS right.

This is why I feel increasingly sceptical about Robert`s methodology.


(Let us, for the moment, stick to the case that the truth cannot be determined for a given situation. For the other case, see above.)

You draw the wrong conclusion that "go is complex" implied "principles are bad". A right implication is: "When specialised principles are inapplicable, then more general principles are tried. When also they are inapplicable, then decision-making by reading (etc.) applies." Another right implication is: "Principles suggest a short-cut. Use decision-making by reading for verification."

He seems to have a principle for everything,


You misunderstand principles fundamentally. There are specialised principles and there are generalising principles. There are truth revealing principles and there are guideline principles. There is a hierarchy of principles. The only principle for everything is "Maximise the score difference for and from the view of the considered player."

What I always have is some fall-back principle whenever a specialising or truth-identifying principle is missing or inapplicable due to complexity.

but I think the more principles you create, the more likely they are simply to break down in the face of go`s extreme complexity.


You misunderstand principles fundamentally.

Regardless of the number of non-fall-back principles, there can always be the fall-back principles.

Principles are not good by their number but are good by their scope of application. Rather than only learning more and more principles, one must also replace specialised by more generally applicable principles.

Go theory has lots of topics, so lots of knowledge is required and lots of principles can be needed to cover all topics. Rather than saying "It is too much for me, I try to play well without ever considering the topic 'life and death'.", you must accept the fact that the topic is needed and knowledge for the topic is needed and so principles representing such knowledge can be useful: E.g., "Life provides more local points for oneself than death."

One's memory plays a role. Everybody has a limited capacity to store principles. (I have said it before: organising them hierarchically in one's mind helps extremely well.) When one hits one's learning capacity, then one must still apply the fall-back principles. You suggest: one must break down. Nonsense! One must apply the fall-back principles! There is no need for breaking down.

the concept of being "N-alive" seems very dubious to me, because there are too many possible confounding variables.


1) There is only one variable: N. The variable is actually a parameter, when applied to a given position. It becomes dynamic during game sequences because life and death status can change dynamically during game sequences. One must update life and death status, so one must also update an N-alive status.

2) Does N-ko seem very dubious to you? You can also write "A ko with N approach moves." Do you reject the consideration of approach kos because they depend on the parameter N of the number of approach moves?! Does endgame play of size N seem very dubious to you? Do you never decide to choose a play of size N because a different play of size M is smaller? Does N eyes seem very dubious to you? Do you never think in terms of "The group has 1.5 eyes."? Does "A group consisting of N stones." seem very dubious to you? Numbers are very useful in Go! Determining numbers in a specific situation is very useful! Numbers are useful because they can be compared very easily! 1-alive is better than 0-alive! Thickness (with the same connection degree and territory potential) is greater if its group 1-alive than if its group is 0-alive!

3) Do you understand how a parameter works? When a term has a parameter N, then one applies the term to the specific object (such as a group) in the specific position by determining the size of the parameter! You say: "This group is 0-alive." You do not say "This group is N-alive, ugh, I do not know what N is, Robert's invention is stupid, because, ugh, I do not want to determine that N is 0 here." You do not leave a group's status at the parameter "It has one of the status values 'independently alive', 'dead', 'seki' or 'ko'", but you actually determine the status! Parameters are mysterious only if you fail to apply them by failing to determine them.

4) Learn what N-alive is! Put the simplest groups on the board that are -2-alive, -1-alive, 0-alive, 1-alive, 2-alive, *-alive (* means: can pass infinitely often).

5) Using the term is very efficient. (Admit it: you have said that efficiency is important.) It is so much more efficient to say "1-alive is better than 0-alive." than "'If the opponent starts and the player can make one pass before his first play and defends all the [group's] stones as alive.' is better than 'If the opponent starts and the player has to reply immediately to defend all the [group's] stones as alive.'.". Quite like it is much more efficient to say "Alive is better than dead." than "'If the opponent starts and the player prevents the stones from removal.' is better than 'If the opponent starts and the player cannot prevent the stones' removal.'.". If you kept talking like that, you would always wonder what relevant information you would be talking about at all. Terms allow efficient factual talking, quite like nouns allow efficient communication.

6) Do you consider the partial concept PON (possible omission number) very dubious? Applied to life, it is N-alive for only positive N.

7) Study applications of N-alive! If you refuse to do so, then OC the concept remains very dubious to you because you do not understand why it would be needed. E.g., compare its usage for my formal characterisation of thickness with typical Japanese characterisation of thickness along the lines "has no severe weakness". N-connected: you simply determine how often the player can tenuki before having to defend against a cut. No severe [for the sake of keeping discussion simple: connection-related] weakness: You need to clarify for yourself what 'weakness' is and what makes a weakness 'severe' in contrast to 'not severe'. You parse the shape for what looks like weaknesses. Then you guess: "Uh, I think this can be called severe." What you get is some rough description of weakness. What does this tell you? Can you compare it to a severe weakness of another shape? Which of the two would be severer? You need to guess again. Not so with N-connected: you already have accurate, comparable numbers.

8) Knowing that something is alive is fine, knowing that it is alive and how good that life's degree is better! 1-alive implies 'can ignore an ordinary ko threat'.

the masters [...] try to play each position on its own terms.


Not only the masters do so.

They are stronger than us because not only because they know a great deal more


Amount of knowlegde does not imply better knowledge of everything.

and are more skilled at applying principles,


Are they? Most of them insist on not knowing (well) how they make decisions. So we cannot even in general say that they would be applying principles. Considering only those of the masters that do apply principles regularly, why would you say that they were more skilled at doing so? Principles are stated clearly and everybody can apply them well! There is one limitation, of course: When principles refer to reading (etc.), then quite likely the masters will be better at doing the required reading.

they know better their limitations,


How do you know that?

since go is exponentially more complicated than even that terrifically rich and beautiful game, imagine how much more abysmal its depths.


See far above.

thinking is something you have to do for yourself. Nobody can build you a mind.


Thinking relies on genetics AND self-training AND information input! By means of providing information, everybody can help you to build your mind. (Of course, you can refuse all information input, especially if you do not read any games, books, forums...)
John Fairbairn
Oza
Posts: 3724
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:09 am
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 4672 times

Re: Thinking + Improvement

Post by John Fairbairn »

Robert:

Your constant harping on about the virtues of logic is wearing for most of us, you know. But even if we accept it has some relevance, there are other views apart from yours of how it impinges, e.g. Rowson: "Chess is a logical game, in the sense that is concerned with a kind of reasoning, but the most salient logic is not the digital logic of theoretical mathematics or the emotionless logic of Star Trek's Mr Spock. It is a logic that swims around the sticky undercurrents of our thoughts, the logic of our psyches, what I call our 'psycho-logics'". There is also the separate field of fuzzy logic.

The brain apparently has an entelechy of its own. We do not know what the vital principle is exactly, but what seems clear already is that the brain has evolved, for reasons of biology and survival, NOT to work routinely in what you would regard as a rational way. The brain is capable of rational thought, of course, but (a) it appears to treat this capability merely as a tool that can occasionally be useful, and (b) all the other tools in the box are very apt to override or interfere with this one, so that the results of rational thought need to be treated with circumspection.

There is therefore a case to be made that it is more fruitful to work with the brain as it is, to accept its foibles. Many thousands of those who have done that have reached a go grade much higher than yours, and in many cases in a rather short span of time. As far as I can see, no-one using the 100% rational method has reached even high amateur standard, and even those who claim to have done that may well have enjoyed much of their improvement from subconscious workings of the brain. This all sounds to me like another success of the rationale of non-rational survival strategies. Or don't you believe in biology?
User avatar
cyclops
Lives in sente
Posts: 801
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 3:38 pm
Rank: KGS 7 kyu forever
GD Posts: 460
Location: Amsterdam (NL)
Has thanked: 353 times
Been thanked: 107 times
Contact:

Re: Thinking + Improvement

Post by cyclops »

RobertJasiek wrote:
Tami wrote:......

............ six screens of information input .....................................(TLTR)....

(Of course, you can refuse all information input, especially if you do not read any ... and forums...)

I won't need a second invitation. ;-)
Post Reply