I find myself in these two situations very often:

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[go]$$Wcm
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X . . a . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

The stones at K16 representing any kind of weak group that would be hurt by 'a' but that would settle pincering a white stone at 'b'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . a . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X X X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

The wall at H representing thickness that would profit a lot from extending by pincering a white stone at 'b'.


I'm never sure of what to do in those situations.

In the first one I hate giving a shimari to create a strong attack on the center stones, but that's what I usually do.

In the second example, I hate giving the enormous territory while being pincered and I also dislike playing farther away from the corner and trying to live inside.

In the second diagram, are you sure B wants the extension to a? It's not a perfect example, but it seems a bit like over concentration... You want to force your opponent to extend towards your strong area, not fence out a few extra points while your opponent move to an area where you are weak.

A shimari is a big move, an the proverb normally applies: Urgent moves before big moves.



Specifics matter. Here it is not "a" that Black fears so much, as it is one point to the left (the jaw).

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[go]$$Wc Black combines attack and defense
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X . . . 2 . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

does not appeal, because is ideal.

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[go]$$Wc Sometimes, maybe
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X . . 2 . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

is less than ideal, so there may be times to play . I can't think of any, though.

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[go]$$Wc Bad for Black
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X . 3 . . 1 . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

is terrible, allowing which combines attack and defense, and hits at the key spot.

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[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X . . 2 . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . 1 . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

After the two space high approach, is less than ideal, and not much of an attack. White can play , but is not happy after .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X . 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . 1 . 2 , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

is big, combining attack and defense, but does the same, and is ideal.

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[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X . . 2 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . 4 1 . 5 , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This way Black secures a base, both sides are over concentrated, and White gets a kakari, anyway.

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[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X . . 7 6 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . 1 . 3 4 , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

In general, White likes this. There is still potential play in the corner.

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[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . 1 . 2 . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . |[/go]

White can be satisfied.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X . 4 2 3 . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . 1 . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Black is over concentrated, and White still gets the kakari.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X . . 1 . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . 2 3 . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

White gets the attack and the kakari.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X . . 1 . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

White can be satisfied. There is still play in the corner.



Specifics matter.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . 2 . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X X X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Because of the Black strength, is a bit over concentrated.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . C . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . 3 . . 1 . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X X X , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Despite the Black strength, threatens to continue with a slide to . If Black prevents that, Black will be over concentrated.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

No - the proverb is urgent moves before big points. Big point is one of a definable set of moves which is rather different from any big move (Robert has fallen into this trap, too), and in fact does not have the same connotation of countability. It does, however, have the connotation of a fuseki play and so tells us the proverb only applies then.

For one good list of big points, see Segoe's in Kamakura, page 130.

If you want to be a stickler for algebraic translation, John, it is urgent places before large places. Besides, you know that I, of all people, will not fall into the trap of confusing a move with a high value from a big move. After all, as a rule urgent moves have higher values than big moves. (Or, if they are sente, they threaten larger moves.) The proverb is useful because urgent moves do not always look like high value moves. (Not that there are not other considerations besides value, OC. )

Look, in English a shimari (in this context) is a move, OK? The proverb still applies, doesn't it?

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

The last thing I would ever want to be associated with is algebra, and in my non-mathematical way I regard a point as a place (and the Japanese definitions of 大場 use e.g.　地点　要点). But that's not the point, so to speak. As far as I can tell, only you use "big move" in this sense. To everyone else, in my experience, and to Sensei's Library, it means what you call a "high-value move". SL seems to use "big point" throughout (and I had no hand in this). The English go lexicon is confusing enough without adding more confusion.

Sorry John, but you've certainly managed to confuse me. Isn't a "move" the same as placing a stone on a point?

BTW, a search on sensei's library for "urgent before big" offers this:

Title containing word:
Play urgent moves before big moves
[Alias] urgent moves before big moves
[Alias] Urgent plays before big plays
[Alias] urgent points before big points

All links point to: Play urgent moves before big moves.

_________________
Patience, grasshopper.

Thank you, this list of examples is exactly what I try and fail to build in my head. I'll try to analyse them to search my analysis flaw.



I see this one.



I see this result as helping black settle while not really hurting the corner so much.




I don't expect b to play like this, so ok up to here.



I don't understand , but I don't like white's result anyway.



I like this result for W and I wouldn't have thought of playing there. I'll try to remember "high middle point" as an option.



I don't like this result for W (so if it's good I'd like to know why). I see this as making b very strong on the left and still giving sente to b for a play on the corner.




I will have to make another thread about this potential in the corner because I really don't see what can be done in there.

Other than that, I see this as exchanging a strong attack on the left for a big corner for b.



Can't b connect under?

I would have to learn to invade that corner before being satisfied with this.




This seems fine for W.




I'd think b wouldn't play this.



The potential in the corner is why I'd imagine b playing a small knight.



But after b got to close his framework, w is still too far from the corner to settle while making any damage, right?

What's the next w move here?
- a gives b the entire huge top. However, it gives w a decent right and sente. (it seems the correct move. I must study those josekis harder).
- b gives b the right and w thickness against a settled b group.
- c... doesn't seem to work without a weaker .



This is the result I'd like as w but I'd expect the previous one.


Thank you very much for the help.

daal said:

If, in Japanese, you describe a move (手)　as a 大きな手, this is best rendered as "big move", and you will find that it is explained in a Japanese go dictionary as a "move with a high value"). Both the usage of this and the associations of the word "value" indicate clearly that what is meant is a move the value of which can be counted fairly accurately. It is also a specific move. It is a tactical move. A "big point", however (大場), has its own entry in a Japanese go dictionary as a separate and different concept. It is a strategic concept. Its definition (大どころ) indicates a place or area where a good strategic move can be made, almost always in the fuseki, and does not necessarily specify the precise move. Typical examples may be an extension or a corner enclosure, or a vantage point, but without specifying precisely which one.

"Big point" (and likewise "urgent point") is perhaps not ideal for this latter sense, especially to the mathematically minded, but it at least preserves the Japanese distinction, which I think is useful. The reason point was chosen over place or area is lost in the mists of time, but my memory is that this was indeed the first choice and the one I grew up with. If SL has also blurred this distinction, I regard that as another of the many reasons not to trust SL. And, if you insist on "big move", you get the silly situation where an urgent move is clearly a big move, so the proverb expressed as "urgent moves before big moves" means the same as "urgent moves before urgent moves" or "big moves before bg moves", and even if you make a mental note that there is a distinction, it can (wrongly) apply to any part of the game. Something like "Tactically urgent areas before strategically big areas" may not have a satisfying ring about it, but at least it means something useful, and also indicates that the fuseki is meant.

When referring to the proverb, I have copied what I have read or heard elsewhere, such as "Play urgent moves before big moves.". My advice has been: Evaluate the sizes of urgent moves to compare them with the sizes of big moves.



Regardless of linguistics, sizes can be considered.



The proverb should always be replaced by more accurate considerations. Thereby one avoids making mistakes because of applying the proverb.

Probably there is no measuring instrument available ?

I found the proverb to be "大場より急場" = "ôba yori kyûba",
kyûba (急場) literally to be "urgent need", and ba (場) literally to be "place", "site", "szene".

However, in a book on Japanese grammar, I found that the usual way to make comparisons in Japanese seems to be
"AはBよりCです."
"A, seen from B, is C."
Let C be "small", then it says "A, seen from B, is small." or "A is smaller than B."

In the proverb shown above, we have
B = 大場
A = 急場
but C is missing.

So, it should be clear that 急場 is #1, and 大場 is #2, but it remains unspoken on what scale.

_________________
The really most difficult Go problem ever: https://igohatsuyoron120.de/index.htm
Igo Hatsuyōron #120 (really solved by KataGo)

I agree that there is confusion, but I am not adding it. I learned the proverb in Japan, and the English version that I later encountered was about big moves and urgent moves. It is not something that I came up with.

OC, the big moves in the proverb are also big moves in the value sense, but so are the urgent moves in the proverb (or they are sente with large threats). People who only hear about the proverb and guess what it means might not realize that, but people who actually learn the proverb should get it.

Note 1: It is not unusual in English or other languages, to use a general term for a set of more specific instances. Sure, there is some ambiguity, but it is within the range of the normal ambiguity of language that people handle every day.

Note 2: Another approach to evaluation, which happens to get the same values as traditional go evaluation, is combinatorial game theory. It explains those values in terms of urgency. It seems like ambiguity is built into the English terms in this proverb.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Here is a clue about invading the corner. You do not have to live to make an effective invasion. I have marked a couple of points that White might consider later.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X . 2 1 4 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X 3 O 6 X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . X . 2 1 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X 4 O . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |[/go]

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.