#177 The Intrepid vs. uranther

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:46 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm26 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O O X . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X O . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X X . . . . 1 2 . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:58 am

For observers:

The Intrepid wrote:I tried hard to make the following work for White:
$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O O X . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X O . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X O X X . . . . X 4 . |
$$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O O X . 1 O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X O . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X X . . . . X 4 . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . |[/go]

However, all such attempts proved futile. With White's group split into two and lacking eyes, White would have to spend moves to reinforce the weak groups. This, in turn, would allows Black to settle his group comfortably and, in addition, reduce White's territory. More importantly, one of the two White groups could actually die. Thus, as much as I'd like to kill the Black group straight away, ignoring uranther's last move is not the way to do so.

I find this fascinating. The very idea of allowing :b2:

here makes me so upset as White that I'd never give it a second thought .. in fact, it seems so clearly bad straight away that I would never spend the time to think through any further continuations. I wonder how much of our strength is simply determined by our ability to quickly weed out the clearly bad ideas in a real game - it has less impact in a Malkovich game, but I'm sure if a professional could see my brain's processing over the course of the game, he'd summarise with something like "You had 30 minutes thinking time in this game, but you spent 29 minutes just thinking about complete nonsense - this is why you are weak".

illluck · Post by **illluck** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:51 am

Splatted · Post by **Splatted** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:56 am

uranther · Post by **uranther** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:33 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm26 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O O X . 3 O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X O . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X X . . . . 1 2 . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

jts · Post by **jts** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:36 am

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:48 am

Sorry, it may take me several more days to make my next move. I need to finish working on a big project this week.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:15 am

If W has read out completely that W can kill B, then I think it's OK to ignore :b26:

.
Permitting the broken shape is OK for W, as long as the global result is good for W (i.e., B dies.)
Conversely, it would be a grave mistake (a big miss!) for W to reply to :b26:

without
also considering that W can kill B.
(Of course, if W ignored :b26:

and B still lived, then W would've suffered a big loss.)
Both B and W also had to consider the variation if B pushes with :b1:

(instead of atari with (a)),
because maybe it's better for B to save the choice between atari (a) and peep (b), until later:
(I haven't been following this game, but I just glanced at a few recent comments; I dunno what I'm talking about!

)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O O X . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X O . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X X . . . . B 1 . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O a . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . b . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Splatted · Post by **Splatted** » Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:34 am

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:06 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm28 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O O X . 1 O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X O 2 . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X X . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I did not finish my project, yet, and I will likely need the rest of the week to do so. However, I decided to make a move anyway because, obviously, Go is more important.

Before anything else, I need to say this: what the hell? topazg makes a post, the post immediately gets liked, and then a bunch of other people chime in. :scratch:

This suggests I might have missed something in the past or am missing something in the current position. Of course, it could also be that topazg simply decided to share with the observers a Youtube video of his cat, or something, and did not comment on the game at all. By the way, if I was induced into reviewing the entire game because of a cat video, the cat better be super spectacular--jumping through hoops, playing the piano, and saying "I love you" all at once. Just saying... :mad:

[By the way, we need additional "angry" emoticons. The "mad" and "evil or very mad" ones do little justice to the range of expressions which ire encompasses. For example, it would be nice to have a red-faced smiley with steam coming out from the ears. Moderator, make it happen! :tmbup:

]

Having looked through my past comments, I counted three mistakes--one which I already knew about and two which I did not know about before. The one that I found previously relates to the following diagram (truncated here) from post #17:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . 2 5 . . 3 4 . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O 1 X . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X a b O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . X . . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . O O O O O O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |[/go]

I now believe that White does not have time to play :w2:

and has to play at "a" to try to kill Black. Otherwise, Black can live with "b."

As for the other two mistakes, first, post #10 contains the following diagram (truncated here):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm3 $$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . 2 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 5 7 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . X O X 6 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 3 a b . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Clearly, after :b10:

, White can play at "a," so Black should probably play at "b" instead. This oversight is inexplicable to me because I noticed it instantly during review. That just goes to show that Go analysis follows the chess-analysis tautology: the longer the lines, the more numerous the mistakes. However, what's truly unfortunate about this error is that it prevented me from considering a play at O9 instead of :w11:

. Let's take a look at what could have happened:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . 4 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 7 9 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . 2 O X 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 X 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 6 . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm10 $$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O 9 . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . X O X X 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X C 5 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 O X 3 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 2 X . 6 . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm19 $$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . X O 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O X . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . 3 4 X O X X C 2 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O X . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . O X X O X X . X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Is this result better than how the game continued? On the one hand, Black's right group got sealed in; the group lived with almost no territory; White got to secure territory on bottom right; White strengthened his top right group; and White gained potential for creating territory in the center. On the other hand, in the game White got to attack Black's top group, played at K13, and continues to threaten Black's right group. At this moment, it is not apparent to me which outcome is preferable. When I review this game, I'll ponder this question some more.

The final mistake is much more serious in nature than the aforementioned two. Namely, after :w9:

(post #24), Black had a way to save his bottom group as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm9 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 6 O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 8 O O 7 X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . 1 . O . X X X 4 X O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O 3 X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 2 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White clearly cannot play like this. White would probably have to go for the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm10 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O 3 X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 O 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After this, White would have to go for broke and attempt to kill something big--a task which seems exceedingly difficult to accomplish. Therefore, I consider myself very lucky to have gotten away with :w9:

.

If Black tries to save his group via the same method in the current game position, White can prevail as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O 6 . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . 5 O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X 3 X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O 2 X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 1 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Thus, the Black group should finally be dead. If it is not, then either the saving sequence is super smart or else I am super stolid.

Finally, as to my :w29:

move in the game, uranther ought to be able to save his group, but he has many options to choose from--and, therefore, many ways to go wrong. He could end coughing up a bunch of points along the way. It should be fun! :clap:

uranther · Post by **uranther** » Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:06 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm28 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O O X . 1 O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X O 2 . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X X . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:14 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm30 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . 1 . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O O X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X O O . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X X . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

uranther's last move is a mistake, lest I am not seeing something. After my response, my reading tells me that the Black group needs to run to live. Naturally, as it runs, I gain strength against the other weak group.

In post #42, I said that the following sequence kills Black's right group:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . 3 X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I had another look at this diagram. While I remain steadfast in my belief that the group cannot form two eyes near the right edge of the board, I now see a way for Black to run:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . 2 O . . O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O 1 . O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 4 X X X X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 3 5 . . . O . O X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

However, the additional strength I might get from chasing the top Black group could well prove sufficient to stop Black's right group dead in its tracks.

Thus, uranther's position is becoming more perilous with each new move. I am starting to think the game might end before I get the chance to invade Black's moyo on the left. That would be a shame, for I am looking at some very evil invasions up there. :twisted:

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:20 am

jts wrote:Topazg - I agree that the move he was considering is bad style, and I would flinch away from playing it here myself; I probably couldn't bring myself to think seriously about it in a face to face game. But why are you convinced that thinking about it is bad? I see four options. Either the cut helps B live, or it doesn't; and either the extra move on the top side affects B's status, or it doesn't. Permitting the cut is good if it doesn't help him live and the extra move affects his status; otherwise, it's bad. I'm not sure which of these is supposed to be the ridiculous thing that a pro would never think about.

You've actually more illustrated my point than I did. I didn't say thinking about it is bad (ideally, I think you'd consider every move tree to its conclusion on the whole board if you could), I'm saying it's so inherently yucky looking I wouldn't consider it.

I think strength largely comes from learning how to prune and adapt your instincts so you quickly ignore the rubbish moves and focus on greater depth on the interesting moves (even AI engines work this way), and it's curious to introspectively see myself do it so strongly when I have malkovich comments to compare my thoughts to. However, I also expect I'll miss a bunch of important moves in the process, and how to learn which prunings are good ones and which are bad is beyond me, let alone knowing how to actually force myself to reconsider my instincts. I do suspect that improvement is more often around this process (revisiting and updating our instincts by testing) than we often talk about, that's all.

As an aside, I think this is just as true at professional level as it is at ours - Kageyama was considered the "amateur's professional" (to his chagrin I think) precisely because he often didn't play the "obvious only move" and instead tried to create his own moves that made more sense to him. The scientist in me thoroughly approves with the approach of rejecting conventional wisdom in the attempt to test it by fire so to speak, but this also smells rather of the same pruning issue - the critical professionals were relying on this insta-prune to make good moves quickly, and Kageyama was spending considerably more time and effort trying to make an improvement on the initially obvious response.

uranther · Post by **uranther** » Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:46 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm30 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . 1 . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O O X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X O O . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X X . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The Intrepid · Post by **The Intrepid** » Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:59 am

Wow! uranther said "enough's enough" and decided to try to kill one of my groups for a change. :mrgreen:

Awesome! I did see the possibility of the monkey jump and the fact that the jump reduces the eye-space of my top group. However, having played K13 on move :w21:

, my group does not need to live locally any more--it can run, if need be. Therefore, if we end up in a situation where his group does not have two eyes and is disconnected from the outside, I will win even if my group does not have two eyes either. I'll do some more reading before posting my next move. Assuming the reading I did previously was not flawed, I should be able to kill much (if not all) of uranther's group with the following move (or some other such move which denies Black group's access to the center):
[

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . O . X O O . O O X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . X X X O . O X O O . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X O X X . . . . X O . | $$ | . . . X . . X X X O . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O O O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . X . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . W . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . O O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X X X . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . X O . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . O . O . X X X . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Worst case scenario: I made a reading error, uranther's group lives, and I suffer a loss of ~10 points on top. That is not all that bad. If I don't fail in invading uranther's moyo on the left, I will end up being comfortably ahead on points anyway.

Life In 19x19

#177 The Intrepid vs. uranther

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