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 Post subject: tsumego (thx to explo)
Post #1 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:27 pm 
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5 years ago explo published a series of tsumego problems. I just found them again. If there is enough response I will republish them here. For historical reasons I start with nr 17. Please mention the nr of the problem(s) you are addressing in the subject title.

November 21st
B to move.

17A:Elementary problem

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------
$$|....XO..
$$|..XXXO..
$$|.OXOO.O.
$$|OXXO....
$$|.OOO....
$$|........[/go]


17B:Intermediate problem

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------
$$|........
$$|.XXXO.O.
$$|.XOOO...
$$|.XO,....
$$|.OO.....
$$|........
$$|.O......
$$|........[/go]


17C:Advanced problem

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------
$$|.O..O........
$$|XOOO...O..X..
$$|.XXX..OOXX.X.
$$|XO.XXXO..,...
$$|.O.XOOXX.X...
$$|XXXX.........
$$|....O.O......
$$|.O.O.........
$$|.............[/go]


Last edited by cyclops on Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This post by cyclops was liked by: Sverre
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 Post subject: Re: tsumego #17
Post #2 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:47 pm 
Judan

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17B applied in "joseki" (I almost resigned in shame with that dango):

Image


This post by Uberdude was liked by 2 people: illluck, Splatted
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 Post subject: Re: tsumego #17
Post #3 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:08 pm 
Oza
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Is it possible you transposed elementary and intermediate?

The best I see for the third problem is a ko... F18 f17, e18 e17, d19 c19, f19 g18. If Wg18 instead of c19, b captures and w loses the race by a lot... A structural deformity at e18 reduces him to a 4-space eye.

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 Post subject: Re: tsumego #17
Post #4 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:08 pm 
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Uberdude wrote:
17B applied in "joseki" (I almost resigned in shame with that dango):

Image


LOL :bow:

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 Post subject: Re: tsumego #17
Post #5 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:22 pm 
Tengen
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My best guesses...

17A:Elementary problem

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------
$$|....XO..
$$|1.XXXO..
$$|.OXOO.O.
$$|OXXO....
$$|.OOO....
$$|........[/go]


17B:Intermediate problem

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------
$$|1.......
$$|.XXXO.O.
$$|.XOOO...
$$|.XO,....
$$|.OO.....
$$|........
$$|.O......
$$|........[/go]


17C:Advanced problem

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------
$$|.O.5O78......
$$|XOOO316O..X..
$$|.XXX42OOXX.X.
$$|XO.XXXO..,...
$$|.O.XOOXX.X...
$$|XXXX.........
$$|....O.O......
$$|.O.O.........
$$|.............[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------
$$|.O8X1XO.34...
$$|XOOOXXOO25X..
$$|.XXXOOOOXX.X.
$$|XO.XXXO7.,...
$$|.O.XOOXX.X...
$$|XXXX6........
$$|....O.O......
$$|.O.O.........
$$|.............[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------
$$|7OO.13O0XO...
$$|XOOO29OOOXX..
$$|5XXXOOOOXX.X.
$$|XO.XXXOX.,...
$$|.O.XOOXX.X...
$$|XXXXO........
$$|.864O.O......
$$|.O.O.........
$$|.............[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------
$$|XOO4XXOO3O1..
$$|XOOOOXOOOXX..
$$|XXXXOOOOXX.X.
$$|XO.XXXOX.,...
$$|.O.XOOXX.X...
$$|XXXXO........
$$|2OOOO.O......
$$|.O.O.........
$$|.............[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------
$$|XOOO.1OOC4X..
$$|XOOOO3OOOXX..
$$|XXXXOOOOXX.X.
$$|XO2XXXOX.,...
$$|.O.XOOXX.X...
$$|XXXXO........
$$|OOOOO.O......
$$|.O.O.........
$$|.............[/go]


Seems like a 4 step ko or something for White to win ...

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 Post subject: Re: tsumego #17
Post #6 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:25 pm 
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17C

I think...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------
$$|.O65O7.......
$$|XOOO31.O..X..
$$|.XXX42OOXX.X.
$$|XO.XXXO..,...
$$|.O.XOOXX.X...
$$|XXXX.........
$$|....O.O......
$$|.O.O.........
$$|.............[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------
$$|.O.5O26......
$$|XOOO31.O..X..
$$|.XXX74OOXX.X.
$$|XO.XXXO..,...
$$|.O.XOOXX.X...
$$|XXXX.........
$$|....O.O......
$$|.O.O.........
$$|.............[/go]

eye vs no eye?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------
$$|.O..O46.7....
$$|XOOO215O..X..
$$|.XXX.3OOXX.X.
$$|XO.XXXO..,...
$$|.O.XOOXX.X...
$$|XXXX.........
$$|....O.O......
$$|.O.O.........
$$|.............[/go]


2 outside liberties vs 5 outside liberties

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------
$$|.O.5976......
$$|XOOO318O..X..
$$|.XXX42OOXX.X.
$$|XO.XXXO..,...
$$|.O.XOOXX.X...
$$|XXXX.........
$$|....O.O......
$$|.O.O.........
$$|.............[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: tsumego #17
Post #7 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:29 pm 
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I don't understand thread, but thank-you for posting tsumego problems : )

I would like to see tsumego forum here where people can post and solve problems all day.

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 Post subject: Re: tsumego #17
Post #8 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:57 pm 
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@jts : quite possible. The elementary one took me a few seconds; more than the intermediate. But I only copied them ( without permission ) from explo's previous threads in Godiscussions.
@uberdude: I imagined you were blond. Probably because of the "uber".
@logan: don't try to understand. I take care of the problems, everyone else ( except Sverre ) of the solutions.

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 Post subject: Re: tsumego #17
Post #9 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:55 am 
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For 17C I would try the following...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------
$$|.O65O.7......
$$|XOOO12.O4.X..
$$|.XXX3.OOXX.X.
$$|XO.XXXO..,...
$$|.O.XOOXX.X...
$$|XXXX.........
$$|....O.O......
$$|.O.O.........
$$|.............[/go]


...or the other way round:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------
$$|.O.4O..578...
$$|XOOO12.O69X..
$$|.XXX3.OOXX.X.
$$|XO.XXXO..,...
$$|.O.XOOXX.X...
$$|XXXX.........
$$|....O.O......
$$|.O.O.........
$$|.............[/go]


and then...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------
$$|.O.OO.1.2O...
$$|XOOOXO.OOXX..
$$|.XXXX.OOXX.X.
$$|XO.XXXO..,...
$$|.O.XOOXX.X...
$$|XXXX.........
$$|....O.O......
$$|.O.O.........
$$|.............[/go]


W seems pretty dead in both variations, please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Edit: I am obviously hallucinating in both lines, so never mind... :-?

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 Post subject: Re: tsumego #17
Post #10 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:47 am 
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cyclops wrote:
I take care of the problems, everyone else ( except Sverre ) of the solutions.


What's that supposed to mean? :scratch:




17A:Elementary problem

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------
$$|.3..XO..
$$|1.XXXO..
$$|2OXOO.O.
$$|OXXO....
$$|.OOO....
$$|........[/go]


17B:Intermediate problem

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------
$$|1.32....
$$|.XXXO.O.
$$|.XOOO...
$$|.XO,....
$$|.OO.....
$$|........
$$|.O......
$$|........[/go]


17C:Advanced problem

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 9@5, ko
$$ ------------
$$|.O65O78......
$$|XOOO31.O..X..
$$|.XXX42OOXX.X.
$$|XO.XXXO..,...
$$|.O.XOOXX.X...
$$|XXXX.........
$$|....O.O......
$$|.O.O.........
$$|.............[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: tsumego #17
Post #11 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:55 am 
Judan

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Sverre, your solution to the elementary one is wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: tsumego #17
Post #12 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:00 am 
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Uberdude wrote:
Sverre, your solution to the elementary one is wrong.



:oops: Wrong as in dead or wrong as in inefficient? :oops:

Is this better?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------
$$|....XO..
$$|13XXXO..
$$|2OXOO.O.
$$|OXXO....
$$|.OOO....
$$|........[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------
$$|.3..XO..
$$|12XXXO..
$$|.OXOO.O.
$$|OXXO....
$$|.OOO....
$$|........[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ------------
$$|.2..XO..
$$|13XXXO..
$$|.OXOO.O.
$$|OXXO....
$$|.OOO....
$$|........[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: tsumego #17
Post #13 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:27 am 
Judan

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Wrong as in inefficient: living with 4 points in sente (well, maybe white doesn't connect but then you have a 7 pt gote yose for later) is unconditionally better than living with 3 points in gote.


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 Post subject: Re: tsumego #17
Post #14 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:15 am 
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Sverre wrote:
cyclops wrote:
I take care of the problems, everyone else ( except Sverre ) of the solutions.


What's that supposed to mean? :scratch:



Well, you were the master solver 5 years ago, so you are discharged now. But OC you are most welcome to participate. I remember you solved most problems by :b1: at a18.

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 Post subject: Re: tsumego #17
Post #15 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:13 pm 
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Sverre wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 9@5, ko
$$ ------------
$$|.O65O78......
$$|XOOO31.O..X..
$$|.XXX42OOXX.X.
$$|XO.XXXO..,...
$$|.O.XOOXX.X...
$$|XXXX.........
$$|....O.O......
$$|.O.O.........
$$|.............[/go]


What if :w6: at 7 in sverre's diagram?

solution: (?)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B continuation: b defeats this variant at 1
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | 9 O 6 8 2 . 1 4 3 . . . . |
$$ | X O O O X X . O . . X . . |
$$ | 7 X X X O O O O X X . X . |
$$ | X O . X X X O 5 . , . . . |
$$ | . O . X O O X X . X . . . |
$$ | X X X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . , . . . |[/go]

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 Post subject: #17c
Post #16 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:28 pm 
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Tommie in GoDiscussions five years years ago: "This problem is a tough cookie". This turned out to be one of the unsolved problems.
He finally proposed the first move at 8 in sverre's diagram ( ie g19 ) but had no time to explore a final solution. So let me have a try in the attached sgf. I especially like the main variant. Wasn't it Einstein who said that an elegant theory must have some truth in it? ( answer: no !)


Attachments:
explo17c.sgf [798 Bytes]
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 Post subject: Re: tsumego #17
Post #17 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:35 pm 
Tengen
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Is that mutual life better than my variation? Or did I miss something in mine?

EDIT: Never mind, your refutation to Sverre's is a refutation to mine too ... a fun problem indeed!

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 Post subject: Re: tsumego #17
Post #18 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:35 pm 
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cyclops wrote:
What if :w6: at 7 in sverre's diagram?


Ouch. :oops:

I am going to have to set these things up on a real board in the future, aren't I?

cyclops wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B continuation: b defeats this variant at 1
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | 9 O 6 8 2 . 1 4 3 . . . . |
$$ | X O O O X X . O . . X . . |
$$ | 7 X X X O O O O X X . X . |
$$ | X O . X X X O 5 . , . . . |
$$ | . O . X O O X X . X . . . |
$$ | X X X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . , . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B How do you deal with this W4?
$$ +---------------------------+
$$ | . O . X 2 . 1 . 3 . . . . |
$$ | X O O O X X 4 O . . X . . |
$$ | . X X X O O O O X X . X . |
$$ | X O . X X X O . . , . . . |
$$ | . O . X O O X X . X . . . |
$$ | X X X X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . |
$$ | . O . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . , . . , . . . |[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: tsumego #17, hard problem
Post #19 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:08 pm 
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Looking over the sgf, I believe I may have found a way for Black to kill, by varying a move from the mainline variation. I may be hallucinating, as usual.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 1-4 as in the mainline
$$ ------------
$$|.O..O213.....
$$|XOOO...O4.X..
$$|.XXX..OOXX.X.
$$|XO.XXXO..,...
$$|.O.XOOXX.X...
$$|XXXX.........
$$|....O.O......
$$|.O.O.........
$$|.............[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black tries to vary by making the 1-2 exchange here...
$$ ------------
$$|.O..OOXX21...
$$|XOOO...OO.X..
$$|.XXX..OOXX.X.
$$|XO.XXXO..,...
$$|.O.XOOXX.X...
$$|XXXX.........
$$|....O.O......
$$|.O.O.........
$$|.............[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Then we capture the White stones with the usual exchange
$$ ------------
$$|.O.5OOXXOX...
$$|XOOO31.OO.X..
$$|.XXX42OOXX.X.
$$|XO.XXXO..,...
$$|.O.XOOXX.X...
$$|XXXX.........
$$|....O.O......
$$|.O.O.........
$$|.............[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W White is short on liberties if he starts at 2
$$ ------------
$$|.O.X23XXOX...
$$|XOOOXX1OO.X..
$$|.XXXOOOOXX.X.
$$|XO.XXXO..,...
$$|.O.XOOXX.X...
$$|XXXX.........
$$|....O.O......
$$|.O.O.........
$$|.............[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black 7 is atari on 5 white stones.
$$ ------------
$$|5O6XX412OX...
$$|XOOOXXOOO.X..
$$|3XXXOOOOXX.X.
$$|XO.XXXO..,...
$$|.O.XOOXX.X...
$$|XXXX.........
$$|....O.O......
$$|.O.O.........
$$|.............[/go]


What did I miss this time?

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 Post subject: tsumego #18
Post #20 Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:53 pm 
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Day #18
November 22th --- Black to move --- ( as always )

Elementary problem

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$---------
$$|....OX..
$$|.OOOOX..
$$|OXOXX.X.
$$|.XX,....
$$|.X.X....
$$|........[/go]


Intermediate problem
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$---------
$$|....X...
$$|.OOOOXX.
$$|.OXXX...
$$|.OX,....
$$|.XX.....
$$|........
$$|.X......
$$|........[/go]


Advanced problem
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$--------
$$|...X.X..
$$|.XOXXXO.
$$|...OOOO.
$$|.O.O....
$$|........[/go]

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