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Offline lovelove
 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #61 Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:29 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm51 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #62 Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:47 am 
Gosei

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm51 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I expect him to net my cutting stones now, and I'll have to decide what to do with sente.
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Offline lovelove
 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #63 Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:49 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm51 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X 3 . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #64 Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:16 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm51 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 X O . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is not unexpected. White will attempt to seal me in. I don't intend to just give him what he wants.
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Offline Unusedname
 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #65 Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:26 pm 
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question for obs

So now that the C6 chain is stronger. and it looks like there is going to be a few cut points at H7 and J8. How afraid should white be of a move at C3?

Can marcus play there right away? or does he have to extend to M3 first?

cause from what i see if lovelove tries to counter attack the E3 group it can either go up and attack the cutting points or go to the right and make a base while pressuring the LR corner

actually while writing this post i had another idea

wouldn't an extension to M3 make miai of both of the bottom 3-3 points?
because in the left white would lose his base and on the right he wouldn't be able to get an effective wall.
edit: nevermind for the 3-3 miai in my mind i had seen black already making a move at R11
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #66 Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:50 pm 
Honinbo
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Unusedname,
Unusedname wrote:
...a few cut points at H7 and J8. How afraid should white be of a move at C3?
We need to look at the variations and go from there. It's W's turn. Say W extends to :w1: -- now, show your variations. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B X O 1 . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline Unusedname
 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #67 Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:37 pm 
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EdLee

well initially i saw something like this

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 6 O . O 4 . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O X X X 5 X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

2 prevents connecting under
3 threatens to cut
4 threatens to push and cut
5 protects
6 connect

but this looks terrible for white so he'll probably play the ko

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 5 O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 1 C X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O C O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . 4 X 3 X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


the cut points don't really come into play in these diagrams.
i guess i just mentioned them since they were so close to the area i was looking at.

the ko seems like it's really big for black, taking away white's base, getting a big corner, and settling his stones.

it also feels like the ko is favorable for black since any local threats by white can be settled by finishing the ko
but the same doesn't seem true for white

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . O 1 . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X 2 X X X 3 X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . 3 . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 O . O 1 . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]



i'm looking at this right now to see if it's actually a worthwhile threat for black but it doesn't seem like it haha
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #68 Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:27 pm 
Honinbo
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Unusedname,
Unusedname wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . B . O X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . a O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 6 O . O 4 . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O X X X 5 X . b . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
First feeling: There's a push-and-cut at (a) -- the :bc: group is not completely alive --
and W(b) attacks the bottom B group. :)
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Offline Dragon Pie
 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #69 Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:00 pm 
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Is it just me or didn't they skip :w37:?
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Offline The Intrepid
 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #70 Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:08 pm 
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What do you mean? This was :w37:, was it not?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm51 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Ontological imperative holds that my losses occurred only in imagination.
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Offline Unusedname
 Post subject: Re:
Post #71 Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:09 pm 
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EdLee wrote:
Unusedname,
Unusedname wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . B . O X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . a O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 6 O . O 4 . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O X X X 5 X . b . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
First feeling: There's a push-and-cut at (a) -- the :bc: group is not completely alive --
and W(b) attacks the bottom B group. :)

EdLee,

oops i would have missed "a"

I had considered white playing at "b"
i just assumed black would be okay by pushing up against white and then counter attacking.

but when i make the diagram it doesn't look as good as i thought it would
haha

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . B . O X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . 6 . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . O . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O O 3 , 7 . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X X X X . 2 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


oh well, thank you for discussing this with me.
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Offline Dragon Pie
 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #72 Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:25 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 150
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Was liked: 10
Rank: KGS 1D
KGS: DragonPie
The Intrepid wrote:
What do you mean? This was :w37:, was it not?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm51 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Thanks, it's because the next diagram by Marcus confused me. It showed 35 36 and 38, but not 37
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Offline lovelove
 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #73 Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:01 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 604
Location: Séoul, Corée
Liked others: 88
Was liked: 365
Rank: Tygem 5 Dan
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm51 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O 5 . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Amsterdam, soon.
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #74 Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:18 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
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Unusedname,
Thanks. I don't know what I'm talking about -- just tossing some ideas around. :)
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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #75 Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:44 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1387
Liked others: 139
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GD Posts: 209
KGS: Marcus316
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm51 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X X . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X . 6 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I had promised myself that I wouldn't try to be clever, but I really feel like this is my answer to a bunch of problems I have in this fight.

First, if lovelove encloses my group, it will have to be done giving me an eye and in gote for him:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm56 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X X 3 4 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X 2 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . b . X X O O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O a . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm sealed in, but I get a chance to come back to my weak cutting stones and attack the group on the left. I think I have enough room for a second eye on the side or in the corner, so the group, while sealed in, is safe(-ish). There's even some cut aji left at 'a' so I can look at trying to exploit that later, though I can't yet see how.

W still has a dangerous attack at 'b', but I think (actually, I'm sure) I can handle that.

I think it's more likely that W will try to erase my eye and continue the fight. Sente is important in this fight, I think, and I don't think lovelove wants to give it up so easily.
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Offline lovelove
 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #76 Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:12 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 604
Location: Séoul, Corée
Liked others: 88
Was liked: 365
Rank: Tygem 5 Dan
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm51 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X X 8 9 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X 7 X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Amsterdam, soon.
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #77 Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:43 pm 
Oza

Posts: 2495
Location: DC
Liked others: 157
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Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Marcus wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm56 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X X 3 4 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X 2 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . b . X X O O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O a . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm sealed in, but I get a chance to come back to my weak cutting stones and attack the group on the left. I think I have enough room for a second eye on the side or in the corner, so the group, while sealed in, is safe(-ish). There's even some cut aji left at 'a' so I can look at trying to exploit that later, though I can't yet see how.

W still has a dangerous attack at 'b', but I think (actually, I'm sure) I can handle that.

I think it's more likely that W will try to erase my eye and continue the fight. Sente is important in this fight, I think, and I don't think lovelove wants to give it up so easily.


I don't understand the purpose of 56. It looks like black is forcing white to seal him in, and in exchange playing a stone that is practically dead. If black wants to make the eye, why not make it directly and preserve the possibility of a push and cut if white responds, or help the cutting stones immediately if they are so urgent?
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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #78 Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:52 pm 
Gosei

Posts: 1387
Liked others: 139
Was liked: 111
GD Posts: 209
KGS: Marcus316
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm51 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X X X O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X O X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


According to plan. Here's where I start to doubt my plans. The only path is forward! At the very least, I look forward to the lesson about to be given to me, should it turn out that this fight is Black's DOOM!
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Offline lovelove
 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #79 Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:59 pm 
Lives in gote

Posts: 604
Location: Séoul, Corée
Liked others: 88
Was liked: 365
Rank: Tygem 5 Dan
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm61 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O 1 . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X X X O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X O X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Amsterdam, soon.
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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: #187 lovelove vs Marcus
Post #80 Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:00 am 
Gosei

Posts: 1387
Liked others: 139
Was liked: 111
GD Posts: 209
KGS: Marcus316
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm61 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X O X X . |
$$ | . . X . . O O 2 . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . X O . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X X X O , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O X O X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X O O . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X X X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


No question, I expect him to cut me here. My plan is to take it like a man! :P Seriously, though, I need to make sure I watch every new group we make, both his and mine. There are going to be a lot of important cutting stones in the near future of this game.
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