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Offline amnal
 Post subject: Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4
Post #21 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:27 am 
Lives in gote

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I've found these games really interesting. Kirby has been crumbling a bit, but I thought the point of interest was moslty magicwand's excellent handicap play - demonstrating extremely well how even fairly evenly matched players can be disconcerted by unusual moves and well timed overplays.

The last game's moyo play was particularly good, and I think weaker players should take note. Magicwand was clearly behind on territory, and didn't have much prospect of a centre moyo, but he won because black became complacent - massively underestimating his potential and then overplaying himself when magicwand did better than expected.

Doing this is exactly what white wants in a handicap game. If black is evenly matched with white, I think backing down is completely the wrong thing to do. Take a leaf out of magicwand's book, and just believe you can kill your opponent everywhere.
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4
Post #22 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:43 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
it probably is an overplay but 4 stone handy require some overplay. for 3 stone i can play textbook style and win. but 4 stone is totally different game because i dont have any corner to start with. its very hard to balance the points at first. basically i have to capture his group.
not by attacking but building my influence and waiting for the right time to kill.

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Offline Fredrik
 Post subject: Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4
Post #23 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:49 am 
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Keep faith Kirby and regain your honor by getting it back to at least two stones. Set up some future goals for yourself ;)

My advice is: Do not be afraid because he has beaten you at two and three stones. He might be stronger then you, but not as the handicap suggest, he is just a more experienced player. Play the board and not magicwand, fight when you have to fight, defend when you have to defend etc and you will surely win! :)
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4
Post #24 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:00 am 
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Fredrik wrote:
Keep faith Kirby and regain your honor by getting it back to at least two stones. Set up some future goals for yourself ;)

My advice is: Do not be afraid because he has beaten you at two and three stones. He might be stronger then you, but not as the handicap suggest, he is just a more experienced player. Play the board and not magicwand, fight when you have to fight, defend when you have to defend etc and you will surely win! :)


wow..Kerby fan club is pretty big :)
do i have anybody on my side???

Kerby: to boost your confidence.. our correct handycap is 2 stone. then we should be even (that is if you dont play me for money). i was very lucky to win last game and this game is crazy handycapped game. if you play your game you shouldnt have any problem winning this game. also..think at least 1 min before you make your move so you dont make costly mistake. few small mistake will not determine the outcome of this game!!! but one big mistake can.

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4
Post #25 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:15 am 
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Magicwand wrote:
wow..Kerby fan club is pretty big :)
do i have anybody on my side???


Everyone loves the underdog ;)
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4
Post #26 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:19 am 
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topazg wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
wow..Kerby fan club is pretty big :)
do i have anybody on my side???


Everyone loves the underdog ;)


with 4 stone?? I AM THE UNDERDOG!! :D

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This post by Magicwand was liked by: dfan
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Offline HKA
 Post subject: Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4
Post #27 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:01 am 
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Magicwand wrote:
topazg wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
wow..Kerby fan club is pretty big :)
do i have anybody on my side???


Everyone loves the underdog ;)


with 4 stone?? I AM THE UNDERDOG!! :D


This should be true. I am big fan of Magicwand, I called him earlier the "Simon Cowell" of Malkovich. He is the guy we love to hate, and the consistency of his aggressive attitude is really fun.

It would be nice, with Kirby down, to spell his name correctly though.

Kirby, snap out of it, and sorry for my mean remark last game, I thought it was too funny to resist, but if it is adding to your melancholy, I sincerely apologize.

We are all rooting for you, do not freak when there are lots of comments - its all support.

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Offline Aphelion
 Post subject: Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4
Post #28 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:18 am 
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I'll admit it, while I hate watching Kirby lose, I prefer Magicwand's attitude to the game over Kirby's. So I guess you can say I'm a Magicwand fan.

P.S.: not a fan of his sequences of 20 moves without comments though, but Kirby is at fault there too.
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4
Post #29 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:38 am 
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Aphelion wrote:
P.S.: not a fan of his sequences of 20 moves without comments though, but Kirby is at fault there too.


below is what i expect from KIRBY.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . 5 . . 4 . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . 1 . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline daal
 Post subject: Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4
Post #30 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:47 am 
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Aphelion wrote:

P.S.: not a fan of his sequences of 20 moves without comments though, but Kirby is at fault there too.


It is however also worth mentioning that Magicwand answered quite a few of Kirby's questions after the game. That deserves a thumbs up, I think.

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Offline Harleqin
 Post subject: Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4
Post #31 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:58 am 
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Not for players!

Magicwand wrote:
Below is what I expect from Kirby:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . 5 . . 4 . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . 1 . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Yeah, and it is what I expect from Magicwand...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . X . . O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . X . . X 3 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It is good for Black, I think, provided Black remembers where he put his axe.

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Offline Marcus
 Post subject: Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4
Post #32 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:12 am 
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I think comments from each player have a ton of merit for us mid-SDK players and below to learn from. I'm a fan of both, and as long as the two are willing, I want to see the series continue.

On that note, for kibitzers:

I'm pretty sure Kirby will win this. Magicwand will either get close, but fall short, or get punished heavily as Kirby begins to see the refutations for Magicwand's overplays. I'm not sure which.
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Offline Bill Spight
 Post subject: Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4
Post #33 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:34 am 
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I have a foot in both camps. I want Kirby to win, and I think that Kirby will win if he plays up to himself. :) At the same time, I am a fan of Magicwand. :)

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Offline Aphelion
 Post subject: Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4
Post #34 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:40 am 
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Marcus:

One thing I know is that this game will not be close. Magicwand will go for all or nothing, and if it doesn't work he will be left with a bunch of stones in the center w/o a moyo or attack going, or if Kirby doesn't refute his overplays very well he will collapse suddenly.
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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4
Post #35 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:44 am 
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Magicwand:
Thank you, that diagram makes a lot of sense. I never feel like I know how to handle situations like that as black or white. In a big handicap game, white always tries to attack both corners on one side, to start to build shape. It seems important and relevant to see this sort of expected continuation, to know how things SHOULD turn out, even if both players end up choosing something different. Kind of a handicap joseki, almost, if less refined.

I know people give you a hard time about not commenting and such, but part of that is the fault of the observers, since few people ask questions. So I'll try to ask more. If black plays the three-space extension instead of the two-space, for :b1:, will you immediately jump inside to fight? Also, is the three-space extension for black actually bad here, or just more fight-oriented?

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4
Post #36 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:24 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . B . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, there are certainly a lot of comments. Thank you to everyone that has commented.

First, to everybody, I am sorry that I have portrayed a negative attitude as I have. Magicwand reminded me yesterday that the point of these games is for learning. I don't like losing, so this has been a bit of a wild experience for me. But I will do my best to remember that the point of these games is learning... I'm really sorry for the negative attitude that I have portrayed. I will do my best not to do this anymore.

I'm sure that the situation will get complicated at some point, but instead of whining or being negative like I have been, I will try to look past my weakness and find the best move.

With that said, there is nothing to do now except to play my best. I will try to play every move with a lot of thought, consideration, and to the best of my ability - regardless of the handicap I've gotten myself into.

---

So back to the game! If I was playing a fast game on the Internet, I would play the two-space extension that I have without thinking. It has at least two purposes:

1.) It makes a base for my stone.
2.) It pincers the white stone at the same time.

But I should consider what happens if I choose an alternative. So what alternatives could there be?

The following points come to mind as possibilities:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . e . . . X . O c . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


or I could ignore the bottom and tenuki at a place like the top middle star point.

So let's consider each move.

a - If I play at "a", I put some pressure on the two white stones. However, it is fairly easy for white to profit from attacking me in return:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . 4 . . B . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w4:, above, is a key point for both of the marked stones. Whichever plays it first gets a base and has a lot of safety. So with option "a", while I put some sort of pressure on the two stones white has on the right, I set up my own pincer stone for being pressured. Perhaps it's possible to play this way, but the key point for both white and black making a base - the move I chose in the game - feels like a much safer way to go. I still have time to pressure either white side at a later point.

b - If I defend territory passively, white can again easily attack my stone:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . 2 . . B . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Pressure is put on the marked stone, above, once again. Black doesn't have a base, and white does with his two stones on the left.

While I can get some territory, I don't think that this is the way to go at all.

c - This kind of move just weakens my pincer stone. I played something similar in the last two games, and especially in the last one, it was like just throwing my pincer stone away. In one of the comments Magicwand left, I noticed that he said that it was better to not play the pincer at all... So, that choice is out.

d - This kind of move grabs territory, but just like c, I am allowing for my pincer stone to be weak once again.

e - This move seems too wide. A tighter pincer is the same as the chosen pincer in that it doesn't allow white to get a base - which is my primary objective here. But it leaves myself open to being invaded later very easily. It seems more efficient to simply play one stone to pincer and make a base simultaneously. That's why I prefer the move in the game to "e".

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This post by Kirby was liked by: padic
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4
Post #37 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:24 am 
Honinbo

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Tygem: 커비라고해
Magicwand wrote:

Kerby: to boost your confidence.. our correct handycap is 2 stone. then we should be even (that is if you dont play me for money). ...


We will see. Let's just play, now.

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4
Post #38 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:30 am 
Tengen
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OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . X . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Violence
 Post subject: Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4
Post #39 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:52 am 
Lives in sente

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I told myself that if Kirby lost at 3, I'd just have to play a game with Magicwand myself.

So Magicwand, do you want to play a game?
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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: 39. Magicwand vs. Kirby, part 4
Post #40 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:19 pm 
Tengen
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DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
Violence wrote:
I told myself that if Kirby lost at 3, I'd just have to play a game with Magicwand myself.

So Magicwand, do you want to play a game?


how do you want to play? even? black? 2 stone?
let me know.

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The greater the unknown"
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