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Author Message
Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: #193 TIM82 vs EdLee
Post #21 Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:12 pm 
Gosei
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Good game, guys :).

Hm.



Attachments:
Edvtim.sgf [723 Bytes]
Downloaded 638 times

_________________
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.
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Offline TIM82
 Post subject: Re: Re:
Post #22 Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:50 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 241
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Rank: EGF 1 dan
Universal go server handle: TIM82
Online playing schedule: sometimes KGS
Won't be making a move until evening, but some thoughts for observers.

I think the position was quite hard to find a really good-looking move for B. Ed's move is nice (though not my style), any closer and I could both pincer and mke a 2-point extension at the same time. Now pincer seems too close to my stone at bottom.
Worth considering locally seem to be at least A and B. Tenuki to split right seems most interesting at first glance however.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , b . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . a . 1 . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Here the question is will black get too much out of pursuing lone white stone. Seems so.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . 1 . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This seems much better. My bottom stone will be laying there, waiting patiently for the weak black group to appear. Black might be able to get stable group in the corner, but then I should be able to enclose pretty well. Sadly, probably gote.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , 2 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]



Black can't do too much in bottom left, an example below (C continues after 9). With right side split (a or b, not sure yet), getting sente to return there (or getting sente there and returning to this corner, playing option B above) seems nice.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . a b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O 3 4 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 7 1 2 8 X . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 9 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #23 Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:29 am 
Honinbo
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Intrepid,
I'm even less experienced with the high approach. :)
Thanks, Loons.
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Offline TIM82
 Post subject: Re: Re:
Post #24 Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:14 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 241
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Was liked: 28
Rank: EGF 1 dan
Universal go server handle: TIM82
Online playing schedule: sometimes KGS
Had a flash of insight, couldn't resist, back to work asap :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . O . . 2 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Splitting right seemed nice, but followups were not that interesting. Additionally, if I split, Ed could play C or this move, and I don't like that at all. This move is big, and will be good whether I play A or Ed B in lower left.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , a . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . b . . 1 . . . O . c 2 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Funny game, usually I'm trying to get all the influence, leaving these 3rd line plays for opponent. I'm bit worried about overall lowness of my positions - would be willing to trade some points for influence soon. Happily Ed is not too imposing influencewise either now, but something to keep an eye on.


Edits for fixing move numbers.
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #25 Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:36 am 
Honinbo
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The joseki sequence starting with the 1-space pincer :w1: would be different from the real game:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O 4 7 . . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . 6 2 3 9 B . 1 . O . . . . .
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------------------[/go]
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #26 Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:58 am 
Honinbo
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Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
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GD Posts: 312
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm19
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . X . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Perfect time (as good as any) to study the joseki and variations starting with this attach (with :w6: being 3 spaces away).
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Offline TIM82
 Post subject: Re: Re:
Post #27 Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:15 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 241
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 28
Rank: EGF 1 dan
Universal go server handle: TIM82
Online playing schedule: sometimes KGS
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 . X . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Trigger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O 3 6 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 5 1 2 8 X . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline TIM82
 Post subject: Re: Re:
Post #28 Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:25 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 241
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 28
Rank: EGF 1 dan
Universal go server handle: TIM82
Online playing schedule: sometimes KGS
Oh yeah, here's the plan. I expect Ed to resist at some point though. To 7 in corner, then tenuki to right finally.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 . 2 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X O 4 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #29 Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:43 am 
Honinbo
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Trigger accepted, and thanks for having no other hidden tags in that post so I could quote it!
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm19
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O 3 6 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 5 1 2 8 X . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #30 Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:51 am 
Honinbo
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Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 349
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm27
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline TIM82
 Post subject: Re:
Post #31 Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:58 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 241
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 28
Rank: EGF 1 dan
Universal go server handle: TIM82
Online playing schedule: sometimes KGS
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm27
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #32 Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:22 pm 
Honinbo
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Offline Loons
 Post subject: Re: #193 TIM82 vs EdLee
Post #33 Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:36 pm 
Gosei
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Let the yose begin!

Cursorily, it seems the opening was satisfactory for black (four corners, white has no big moyo).

_________________
Revisiting Go - Study Journal
My Programming Blog - About the evolution of my go bot.
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #34 Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:23 pm 
Honinbo
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm29
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
For beginners. Before this game, I only had a little experience with the following joseki
(with the 1-space pincer :wc:, different from the real game):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Variation 1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O 3 6 . . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . 5 1 2 8 X . W . . . . . . .
$$ | . 9 4 . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm11 Variation 1 (cont'd)
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 X 1 2 . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X O . . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . X X O O X . W . . . . . . .
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------------------[/go]

In our game, :w28: is different from the above :w10:, and the pincer :ws: is farther away;
in addition, there is the rest of the board to consider (like :wt:):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm28
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X O . . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . X X O O X . . . @ . . Q . .
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------------------[/go]
Ishida, Takao, and the database are all interesting and fun,
but actually they don't help so much. For example, I was looking at B(a) or B(b) for :b29::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm28
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . b . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X a . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X O . . . . , . .
$$ | . X X O O X . . . O . .
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------------[/go]
I noticed two things:
(1) locally, pro move seemed to be :black:(b) kosumi;
(2) the (additional) broken shape for B after :b1:- :w2::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X 1 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X O 2 . . . , . .
$$ | . X X O O X . . . O . .
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------------[/go]
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Offline TIM82
 Post subject: Re: Re:
Post #35 Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:42 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 241
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 28
Rank: EGF 1 dan
Universal go server handle: TIM82
Online playing schedule: sometimes KGS
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm29
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X O 2 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I feel this is not right. As black I think would have played 27 against the two stones above, attacking them and stabilizing my stone at teh same time.

Giving 29 (and upcoming 31) to black is regrettable, but I dont want an attack on my two stones on the side right now, would be free points to black.

I think I will next split right side at a - If black approaches from bottom, I get three space extension upwards, if from up, there is no really outstanding approach move which would enclose the corner too, and black's bottom enclosure is quite tight after that. As a longer term plan, playing some moves against the bottom right enclosure and then somewhere around B would extend my biggest area, but I'm not happy about aji around C...

Also, I'm more and more worried about my low positions. Unfamiliar with situatins like this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm29
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X O 2 . . c c . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . c O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #36 Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:33 pm 
Honinbo
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Locally, :w30: is a pro reply. Otherwise, :b2: seems unpleasant:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W :w1: tenuki
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O X O 2 . . . , . .
$$ | . X X O O X . . . O . .
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------------[/go]
:study:
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #37 Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:55 am 
Honinbo
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Posts: 8859
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm31
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X O O . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Rejected: :w2: pulling back seems sente:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b3: tenuki
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 5 6 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 X 7 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X O O . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Rejected: :w2: seems pretty annoying for B:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b1: tenuki
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X O O . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Does not work for B:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b1: tenuki
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 3 6 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X O O . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
W gets :w4: in sente:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b1: tenuki
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 4 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X O O . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline TIM82
 Post subject: Re: Re:
Post #38 Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:59 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 241
Liked others: 11
Was liked: 28
Rank: EGF 1 dan
Universal go server handle: TIM82
Online playing schedule: sometimes KGS
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm31
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X O O . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


So, lets see. Giving 2 to black would be too bad. It's the next move that's more interesting. Haven't read it yet thoroughly at all, but seems I can't resist black A easily with B,C,D, nor hane with B - so can I play a move extending the area and protecting against that? Perhaps point E that I mentioned earlier? Is left side feasible after black E,F,G? :scratch:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm31
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . g . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O f . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . X . e . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . d . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X O O . . c b . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . a O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Last edited by TIM82 on Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #39 Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:43 am 
Honinbo
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Posts: 8859
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm33
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O . . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X O O . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O X . . . O . . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
I had really wanted to tenuki on :b31: and play here, but didn't -- see hidden variations for :b31:, Post #37.
I wasn't sure if :b31: was sente, so I'm glad W replied.
Locally, after the exchange of :bc: kosumi and :wc:, one pro follow-up was the :b1: - :w2: exchange --
however, our game is different from their situations (see hidden variations for :b31:, Post #37).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . O 1 . . . .
$$ | . . . . B . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . O X O W . . .
$$ | . X X O O X . . .
$$ | . X O . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ -------------------[/go]
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Offline EdLee
 Post subject:
Post #40 Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:08 am 
Honinbo
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Location: Santa Barbara, CA
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For beginners. One idea behind :b33: is W cannot make a big wedge on the 3rd line with a miai of 2-space extensions.
(All the following boards are rotated for space.)
For example, :w2: has miai of (a) and (b) -- both 2-space extensions from :w2::
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :b1: tenuki
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . a . . 2 . . b . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Another example: :w2: also has miai of (c) and (d):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Variation. :b1: tenuki
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . c . . 2 . . d . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
However, after :b33:, such a point on the 3rd line no longer exists for W:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm33
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
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Board index » L19²GO (Malkovich) » 1-on-1 Malkovich games

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