New American Pros

[BigBadBuu]

Lee Sedol will play a ten-game series against the two new U.S. professionals, Andy Liu and Gansheng Shi.
So lucky.

[logan]

And Andy Liu vs. Chang Hao in March

[farmer]

Here Pro stands for problematic.
I feel their pains. They are lonely, not different from before. Not even a possible $10k annual income waiting.
AGA is very frustrating. No one understands what a pro is. Even the real pros become amateurs in this land.

[lovelove]

Here Pro stands for problematic.
I feel their pains. They are lonely, not different from before. Not even a possible $10k annual income waiting.
AGA is very frustrating. No one understands what a pro is. Even the real pros become amateurs in this land.

These two pros can join in most of Korean domestic tournaments (Olleh, Myeongin, Sipdan, Cheonwon), and all of the world tournaments (Samsung, LG, Ing, Chunlan, BC card).

They have enough opportunity to show their strength, and their success may bring more supports.

[farmer]

What is your point? You can join those tournaments too if you are strong enough.
For playing in those korean tournaments, who will pay the cost, including traveling and lodging. You think that the prize money is waiting for them?
For the rights to participate in the other main world tournaments, there are a lot of others who are vying them too. The TWO do not get the automatic right, otherwise it is not fair.
Even if they get any prize money, not enough to cover their expense, no to mention living.
It is a joke, pity.

These two pros can join in most of Korean domestic tournaments (Olleh, Myeongin, Sipdan, Cheonwon), and all of the world tournaments (Samsung, LG, Ing, Chunlan, BC card).

They have enough opportunity to show their strength, and their success may bring more supports.

[gowan]

Pros in oriental countries also have difficulty making a living from tournament winnings alone. Game fees have been reduced or eliminated, and the prize money tends to go to the same few players who do quite well. The rest of them have to teach, give TV commentaries, write books, and open go salons. Lower ranked pros aren't the ones giving TV commentaries, they're the ones assisting the commentators. In Japan, and maybe Korea and China for all I know, large companies hire go pros to teach in the company go club; this would be an opportunity for lower ranked pros but how many USA companies have a company-sponsored go club?

[Mef]

Here Pro stands for problematic.
I feel their pains. They are lonely, not different from before. Not even a possible $10k annual income waiting.
AGA is very frustrating. No one understands what a pro is. Even the real pros become amateurs in this land.

It may be more an issue of you not understanding what "pro" is. Most professional athletes need to have some for of supplemental income. Since we're discussing US go pros, let's compare them to pros in other sports. If you are a soccer player in the United Soccer Leagues (A developmental pro league), you're going to be making a minimum of $1,000 / month for a guaranteed 5 months. If you make it all the way to MLS (the top league) you still may only be pulling down 33,750, the league minimum. OK, you might be think that soccer's not the best sport to be a pro in for the US, let's look at baseball. The league minimum for a AAA level baseball player is $2150 a month for the 6 month season. Note, a AAA player has already progressed through at least 3 levels of professional baseball prior to this, and they are still potentially making less than $20,000 a year from their "profession". In the world of tennis, fewer than 300 people globally (out of >4000 registered players) are able to break even solely from being a touring professional, much less earn a living wage.

When taken in context I don't see why you would try to interpret being a go professional as different from being any other kind of professional. It's a recognition of your abilities, and it is potentially a supplemental source of income for those who have been recognized.

[farmer]

Your numbers have no revelance.
Give 10 years, you will not see the ￥1000 minimum/month for even guaranteed 1 month.
There is no league.
There is no soil.

Here Pro stands for problematic.
I feel their pains. They are lonely, not different from before. Not even a possible $10k annual income waiting.
AGA is very frustrating. No one understands what a pro is. Even the real pros become amateurs in this land.

It may be more an issue of you not understanding what "pro" is. Most professional athletes need to have some for of supplemental income. Since we're discussing US go pros, let's compare them to pros in other sports. If you are a soccer player in the United Soccer Leagues (A developmental pro league), you're going to be making a minimum of $1,000 / month for a guaranteed 5 months. If you make it all the way to MLS (the top league) you still may only be pulling down 33,750, the league minimum. OK, you might be think that soccer's not the best sport to be a pro in for the US, let's look at baseball. The league minimum for a AAA level baseball player is $2150 a month for the 6 month season. Note, a AAA player has already progressed through at least 3 levels of professional baseball prior to this, and they are still potentially making less than $20,000 a year from their "profession". In the world of tennis, fewer than 300 people globally (out of >4000 registered players) are able to break even solely from being a touring professional, much less earn a living wage.

When taken in context I don't see why you would try to interpret being a go professional as different from being any other kind of professional. It's a recognition of your abilities, and it is potentially a supplemental source of income for those who have been recognized.

[oren]

farmer, why all the negativity? As many have said, professional players in other countries don't earn a living off tournament play either.

[farmer]

It's reality though sounds negativity.
I wait to see how they will make a living by being a pro here. TV commentary, playing in a club? teaching? Hope they do not quit their College and end up working in MacDonald.

farmer, why all the negativity? As many have said, professional players in other countries don't earn a living off tournament play either.

[oren]

We have multiple professionals in North America earning a living already, don't we?

Yilun Yang, Feng Yun, Mingjiu Jiang, and a few others. They're not going to get rich and would probably need to get supplemental income, but why not give them a rank of "professional". It gives players in North American a chance to compete in professional tournaments overseas. I can only see that as a positive thing for Go here.

[lemmata]

I would not worry about the financial futures of our first two AGA pros. They are attending (or have graduated from) some fine universities and will have other means of earning a good income for themselves in the future.

The ones we should worry about are the 20-somethings in China, Korea, and Japan who have invested their entire early youth on go as insei while neglecting most school work and have no pro diploma to show for their troubles. Those people have a bleak and difficult future ahead of them.

The AGA pros have much better backup plans and other qualifications to fall back on.

[Mef]

I would not worry about the financial futures of our first two AGA pros. They are attending (or have graduated from) some fine universities and will have other means of earning a good income for themselves in the future.

The ones we should worry about are the 20-somethings in China, Korea, and Japan who have invested their entire early youth on go as insei while neglecting most school work and have no pro diploma to show for their troubles. Those people have a bleak and difficult future ahead of them.

The AGA pros have much better backup plans and other qualifications to fall back on.

I'll admit this is more or less 1 step above total hearsay....but I think I recall speaking with someone who said that many of the kids aiming to be Chinese pros do so because it greatly improves their chances of attending a top university (and they don't intend to actually make go a career). Of course cum grano salis and all that...

[Sumatakyo]

Asia is different from North America. You don't need a university degree to find a decent job (although it helps).
At my company, a sumo wrestler that never became a pro (as far as I am aware) is the director of HR.

That said, it will be tough for AGA pros, but I think it's a great step for Go!

An interesting thing about pros in Japan is that a lot of them have a local association that supports them. Locals are very proud to have a pro from their city, so the go players from that city and the surroundings will join the association for a fee.

In my area, the cost to join is about 40$/year. Members get to play against the pro once a month. I'm sure my local pro (Imai Kazuhiro) doesn't make much money from this, but it helps. From what I understand, he supports his family from this, teaching, and guest appearances at local amateur tournaments. If the AGA pros live in a big city, creating an association might be a good idea, but the rules might be different. Go is, after all, a "traditional" sport in Japan, so players might get some type of tax benefit.

Also, in my experience North American are much cheaper at supporting these sort of things, and a lot of NA go players appear to be students who can't really afford to help support a local pro.

[zslane]

The pro system in Asia offers many revenue streams that American pros will probably never enjoy. The game is just not popular enough here to provide sustainable teaching, writing, and (tv) commentary opportunities. There are no cultural roots deep enough to imbue pro go players in America with celebrity status as in Asia.

For a few years, poker (Texas Hold'em in particular) was popular enough in America to become a televised spectator "sport". Of course, the best poker players didn't really become celebrities, rather, celebrities (of tv and film mostly) brought some sparkle and spectacle to the game to draw otherwise indifferent viewers in. But ultimately poker as a form of popular entertainment was merely another fad in this country, and has since disappeared from the pop cultural landscape for the most part.

Even chess has never enjoyed this sort of broad appeal in the US, well maybe briefly in the 1970s due to Bobby Fischer but even then a "professional" chess player in America at that time was very different from a Soviet "professional" in terms of financial security. I just don't see go ever becoming well known enough, much less popular enough, in America to support the varied revenue streams typically available to pros in Asia. Consequently, the term "pro" will necessarily have different implications in the US than in Asia, perhaps significantly so.