Hi guys,

I am working my way through Kageyama's "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" (really excellent book). Currently I'm on Chapter 9, Proper and Improper Moves.

My understanding is that the proper move is the one suggested by the stones themselves. It's the move that is needed for the other stones to fully realize their usefulness.

Most the examples were things like, capture a cutting stone cleanly (often at the end of a joseki), connect solidly against a peep, etc. But there's this one probe question that bugs me:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W tenuki
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . a 1 . . . |
$$ c . . b . 2 X . . . |
$$ d . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |[/go]

Which is the proper move in the position? Kageyama says 'a'. I can see that 'b' is neither a solid move nor an extension, so that's out of the question for me. But I don't see why as Black you would want to let White tenuki twice in responding to this probe. If says you want the outside, then wouldn't you extend to develop that influence?

If we look at what Black gets after 'a', Black got 2 outside stones facing the top side,
and he resolved some aji in the corner. is very dead I think. White had sente, so okay, he is entitled to one tenuki. But then is a free move. Isn't this move likely worth a lot more than a second line stone at 'a'?

It could also be that I'm overthinking this, and tenuki is also fine, it's just the question is purely a local question about the top side. Can anyone shed some light on this?

is a standard response to the probe. "a" is a proper move followup as it's a thick way of dealing with the aji, but that doesn't mean it should be .. I think Kageyama was saying "at the point where playing another move here is biggest, this is the proper move" as opposed to "It's urgent, play it now".

The idea behind responding to at is to take the outside, as you said. The aji that's left is for white to create a tripod group inside, as here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . a 1 . . . |
$$ c . . b . 2 X 3 5 . |
$$ d . . . . . , 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |[/go]

I think that what Kageyama is saying with at A if white tenukis (which he often should to come back to it later) is that A is the move which is most true to the original aim, helping the outside, while removing the aji of white's building the tripod group. If you need to make a move at C or D to lay a stake to the top side, then the original response of was the mistake. It's a move to use when black already has a presence on the top side and can expect to get more there than from the corner, implying that black doesn't need another move there anytime soon.

If black can expect more points on the right side, or in the corner, than at 3 or one of the hanes which allow white sabaki in exchange for the corner may be better. If none of those appeals either, because of white positions on the outside, then black really owed a move in the area prior to .

That said, if this probe is timed correctly, black should probably tenuki for the time being as well.

EDIT: In retrospect, I am unsure if my comments about being a mistake in that situation are correct.

My copy of Fundamentals is wandering somewhere in the house so I can't check. But IIRC, Kageyama is writing about the general idea of "proper" plays being ones that settle the aji in the position. These are not necessarily the next play.

For example... Below White answers with . When Black then continues elsewhere, so does White. However...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Cho Han-seung - Weon Seong-chin, 15th GS Caltex Cup, 2010-11-15
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . 6 . 0 8 . . |
$$ | . 1 O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

When things quiet down White does in fact go back and play Kageyama's "proper" move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Continuation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . O O . . |
$$ | . X O , . . . . . , . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . 0 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 8 . 9 . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . X , X O . |
$$ | . . X 5 2 O . . O . X . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . 7 1 3 4 . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

To me, the "proper move" is a kind of move that you play to defend. It's a move that eliminates all aji, which leaves you with a thick position.

I think I'm getting it, thanks for your responses.

Would it be too much to say that, in the example, Black owes a move? If that's true then what Kageyama must be saying is that is that move, and not 'b', 'c' or 'd'.

The spectrum of urgency in these moves makes sense for me. At least, that there are different levels of urgency, and is clearly very urgent, whereas Kageyama's examples tend to be less clearly urgent.

Yet even in the pro example, White has gone back quite soon to fix things after this probe. I guess I'm more surprised than anything else that such a probe demands 2 moves worth of responses! Obviously I should learn these variations.

You may wish to look at what I posted about Prophylaxis in the thread "Is sente efficiency". My suggestion was to read an excellent extract from a chess book but substitute "honte" for "prophylaxis". Honte is the Japanese for 'proper move'. 'Proper' is not ideal. The idea is more like '(safe and) sound' rather than simply 'correct'. You are preempting trouble by playing a necessary move early, and given that mindset you should be playing the safest move available. In short, a stitch in time saves nine.

In the original what are "proper moves" and "improper moves"?

本手 (honte)　and ウソ手 (usote)?

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Thanks, that's an excellent post that I missed because it was in a thread with a long argument. Rowson's my absolute favorite chess author. "The Seven Deadly Chess Sins" gives so much practical advice for handling psychology, and the challenges you have to finding the right move over the board. Those are things that help with Go as well (even if you probably do need to play chess to understand that book).

Honte as Prophylaxis is an interesting idea, and one that right now I can sorta see. I'll have to see if it makes sense in my own games. I think it could help a great deal in learning fighting and josekis (basically contact plays), but I'll have to play and do a lot of game review to try to keep an eye out for it.

Up until now, the way I was undertanding 'honte' was just as the antonym of 'fancy'. Kageyama notes that amateurs, in an effort to try to be more efficient, can try too hard to play lightly and miss moves. Rowson similarly notes prophylactic thinking is to be aware of your opponent's plan in relation to your own. One could think of a bad improper move as being too fancy, one that disregards the possibilities open to your opponent, and that tries to do too much or at the wrong time. Both in Go and Chess, when you make a move you are trying to do something with the move (even moreso the case for strong amateurs), and that's the trap.

Yes. A bit of google turned up the Japanese chapter titles.

http://blog.goo.ne.jp/kkm3/e/39c4ada948 ... 7cea4279cb

Thanks.

Translation is not easy, so this is not really a criticism. But we talk of Thank-you moves. For usote I kind of like You're-kidding moves.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Here, here!

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

Here's the thread, post #91: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7456&start=80