Shinogi and sabaki does seem to be what it is.




I appreciate your advice. My experience is when asking questions on a forum, it is important to demonstrate some attempt to solve the problem oneself and or whatever progress one has made, at which point people are more willing to engage, often times in an attempt to settle a similar problem, and that in many cases solutions are likely to come from those who are not necessarily the experts.

This post is quite confusing because the italicized part suggests that "balanced attack" is a characteristic of white's play in your diagram. However, black is the only player who is in a position to mount a reasonable attack. Little details like this make it difficult for people to respond.

My guess is that what you mean by "attack" is not the same as what most people mean when they talk about attacking in go. It seems to me that you are using the word attack as a synonym for "plan", which is a much broader idea. You may want to take more time to organize your own thoughts in the shared go lexicon so that communication flows more smoothly.

Like others in this thread, I think that particular way of playing against the Chinese opening is very questionable on an empty board. Furthermore, even in the pro game with that position that was mentioned, it seemed to be a way of giving a lot of territory to black in exchange for a lot of center influence. That hardly seems like a territorially balanced way to play. One has to wonder if black being Cho Chikun had something to do with this outcome, but white also used some aji from surrounding stones that were not in your diagram. Those extra stones were important to how white made shape with the stones near black's 3-4. What you keep calling sabaki doesn't happen without the implied threats generated by the extra stones.

This formation seems like a worth while study because white can get that formation just about any time they want. It hasn't occured to me before, but perhaps there is something to the timing in the execution. I guess white doesn't need to rush to invade, because the Chinese Fuseki isn't set up to make use of an enclosure. IE stones at a, b or c don't really help. A stones at a or b is to cramped with the extension, and c still has an invasion under the hoshi. So I conclude white can wait.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . c c . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think that you completely misunderstood me. I am not talking about the formation that you diagrammed. I am talking about the follow-up moves in the Cho Chikun-O Rissei game record that make shape for those stones after the moves in your diagram. If those follow up moves don't work, then the formation in the diagram you made is pretty bad.

EDIT: On second thought, if you understand that this is not the right time to make that sort of formation, maybe you did understand what everyone was saying.

I guess the follow up, is for the long extension from the 34 corner in other formations such as the mini-Chinese, is it necessary to invade immediately?

No, it's not necessary to invade immediately. Two common responses to the low chinese:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . 1 . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . c c . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In fact, my sense is that approaching Black's 3-4 point from the "normal" side is considered unwise, though it can be played by us kyu players.

_________________
Occupy Babel!

I personally like your two choices because there are so many pro games to use for studying those. Here's another interesting one: White 1 or a, to prevent the Chinese opening. Approaching a 3-4 instead of taking an empty corner happens a lot in classical games.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If white chooses to build their own moyo or enclosure, then it becomes a question of when will black decide to play the red triangle, I guess that is why it is important for white to occupy the upper side so that black doesn't get a stone in around a

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . a a . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . a a . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . T . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I’d like to quote HH from another thread. viewtopic.php?p=124258#p124258

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http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.

I would like to quote myself from another thread.

That's all.

Happy New Year!

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

I believe that the point of the enclosure is that it is strong, and therefore it becomes less valuable to play on the top side.

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Occupy Babel!

Well as enclosure's go maybe not the strongest, but I agree with the point about the value of play on the upper side, given the presence of the strong enclosure.

Also I would add that if black were to make a similar enclosure in the bottom right, he wouldn't be doing all that well against komi.

I think this belongs in another thread, but even in basketball practice there is a concept of strategy. You can practice three pointers for years, but what are you going to do when when you encounter a team that has practiced a 131 zone press, and you can't even get the ball in bounds before they steal it and shoot layups and score two or three baskets to your one, or a team that cleans the glass rebounding, so you never get a second chance shot. The point is that what teams do in practice is guided by two principles

A) What type of talent they have (height, strength, speed, depth, shooting, driving) and
B) what is the over arching strategy.

My favorite ball team is a good example they switched coaches from Anderson to Haith. Anderson played uptempo, and recruited fast players and in the preseason they spent most of their time doing conditioning exercises. Haith recruited re-bounders and they spend most of their time in the weight room. As it may relate to this thread there are teams that are more extreme than others in the style of play, and some may even prefer a balance, that acknowledges that certain situations will require different skills. IE what if zone press gets the ball out of bounds in a half court situation how they going to score so they can set up their press, or a dribble drive team plays a zone, etc. Same thing in go. Cho Chikun was considered a greedy territorial player, but also was known for his shinogi.

Actually, a similar enclosure by black in the bottom right is a good move. It strengthens black's corner and right side, and has been played quite frequently in pro games.

_________________
We don't know who we are; we don't know where we are.
Each of us woke up one moment and here we were in the darkness.
We're nameless things with no memory; no knowledge of what went before,
No understanding of what is now, no knowledge of what will be.

Yes and black even wins, 43% of the time.

tsumegotsumego.

This is exactly what I meant. There is theory, and it has value, but 90% of getting strong is not about theory, it is about doing the same things over and over and over again until you get it right. Practise, practise, practise!

But we should also realize that practise is, at its core, pretty boring. Most people don't like doing repetitive things. So we talk about strategy, and theory, and principles. Not because it'll get us strong in the fastest way possible, but because it is fun, because it is interesting, because we like it. And that's fine. That's what we are amateurs for (from French: amateur = "lover of"). We're in this game because we like it. And if theory is your passion, then by all means talk about it all you want. Because ultimately it helps you reach your goal in go: enjoying it.

Slightly OT but....Mizzou?

more like

Memorize joseki study tesuji.



Everyone talks about a Professional as if they were an oracle of the game. I am pretty sure this is not true and that professionals are very concerned about strategy

Only in a practical sense. Professional strategy comes from reading and pattern recognition, not from theory. Professionals don't look at the board and think "urgent moves before big moves", "corners, sides, center" or "hane at the head of two". They look at the board, they recognize the interesting points through pattern recognition, they read out the trickier variations, they play.

In the same way, good basketball players are not thinking about theory. They're not playing by going through some sort of mental check-list. They see the options in a fraction of a second and decide by instinct. Instincts they've drilled into their subconscious through endless practise.

I edited my post you cited above and added a few words for clarification about what depth I was thinking there. I can't clarify this more at this moment, but needed to add this note to avoid being contradictory to myself. maybe I will open another topic about it

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