Are we humans or are we bots?

General conversations about Go belong here.
Post Reply

How many bots?

0
2
8%
1
2
8%
2
9
35%
3
7
27%
4
4
15%
5
2
8%
6
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 26
User avatar
Solomon
Gosei
Posts: 1848
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:21 pm
Rank: AGA 5d
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Capsule 4d
Tygem: 치킨까스 5d
Location: Bellevue, WA
Has thanked: 90 times
Been thanked: 835 times

Are we humans or are we bots?

Post by Solomon »

So I hear a lot of people claim that bots play "differently" than humans, that they have a different style and just play like bots. But I wonder if such people can tell, so a small exercise to them and those interested in participating:

Below I've posted three games, non-blitz and all dan-level. The question is, can you tell how many of the players are bots and which ones are the bots? Games could be human vs. human, human vs. bot, or bot vs. bot. Should be easy right?





Top
billywoods
Lives in gote
Posts: 460
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:12 pm
Rank: 3 kyu
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: billywoods
Has thanked: 149 times
Been thanked: 101 times

Re: Are we humans or are we bots?

Post by billywoods »

My guess is going to be:

1. Black bot, white human
2. Black human, white human
3. Black bot, white bot
Top
badukJr
Lives with ko
Posts: 289
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:00 pm
Rank: 100
GD Posts: 100
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 42 times

Re: Are we humans or are we bots?

Post by badukJr »

I think when people talk about how 'bots' play differently, its that they have very specific flaws in their playing styles that can be exploited repeatedly until the author can update the code. This of course requires repeated playing that you won't see in this test.

You won't be able to derive any conclusions here then. A better test is to show a 10 or 20 game series and ask which player is bot or human.
Top
Ellyster
Dies in gote
Posts: 62
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:32 pm
Rank: KGS 3 kyu
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Ellyster
Location: Granada, Spain | Osaka, Japan | Turku, Finland | Tokyo, Japan
Has thanked: 50 times
Been thanked: 22 times
Contact:
Contact Ellyster

Re: Are we humans or are we bots?

Post by Ellyster »

I was going to say "All bots"... but in second thoughts:

1. Black bot, White bot
2. Black bot, White bot
3. Black human, White human

My twisted mind tells me that are the oposite that it looks
Last edited by Ellyster on Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
User avatar
Joaz Banbeck
Judan
Posts: 5546
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:30 am
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
Location: Banbeck Vale
Has thanked: 1080 times
Been thanked: 1434 times

Re: Are we humans or are we bots?

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

I only have two guesses about the six

1. Black = bot
2. White = human


This is a great thread. :clap:
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
Top
snorri
Lives in sente
Posts: 706
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:15 am
GD Posts: 846
Has thanked: 252 times
Been thanked: 251 times

Re: Are we humans or are we bots?

Post by snorri »

I don't think it's that easy if you've actually included some bots here.

Game 1

Black is not a bot. Moves :b11: are :b13: are too fashionable. For the same reason, I think white :w12: indicates a non-bot player. No further analysis.

Game 2

The :w12: high enclosure strikes me as a very human thing to do. It smells of ego. I think maybe white is not a bot. Also, :w18: shows jealously, a very non-bot trait. The sequence :b45: to :b49: is odd, but I'm not sure I'd attribute it to irrationality? I will assume so, therefore, not a bot.

Game 3

Some funny tenukis lead me to suspect that both players are bots.
Top
User avatar
gogameguru
Lives in gote
Posts: 477
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:18 pm
Rank: 5d
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 192 times
Been thanked: 357 times
Contact:
Contact gogameguru

Re: Are we humans or are we bots?

Post by gogameguru »

Haha, interesting idea :)

I think one factor that's still different is consistency (at whatever level). Even strong bots still seem to play a bit phrenetically.

It's been awhile since I've watched bots play though, so let's see if I'm right...

My guesses:

Game 1: Both players are human. There seems to be too much creativity and interplay between both players. As far as I know bots still don't play like that.

Game 2: Black seems like a bot, I think white's a human.

Game 3: White's a bot (or someone who's high). I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that black is Sol pretending to be a bot :) (bonus points maybe?).
Top
hyperpape
Tengen
Posts: 4382
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 3:24 pm
Rank: AGA 3k
GD Posts: 65
OGS: Hyperpape 4k
Location: Caldas da Rainha, Portugal
Has thanked: 499 times
Been thanked: 727 times

Re: Are we humans or are we bots?

Post by hyperpape »

Answers:
The only one that says anything to me is White in the third game. This is hard.


Question:
How did you choose these?
Top
yoyoma
Lives in gote
Posts: 653
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:45 pm
GD Posts: 0
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Has thanked: 54 times
Been thanked: 213 times

Re: Are we humans or are we bots?

Post by yoyoma »

1. Black=bot, White=human
2. No idea
3. Both bots.
Top
User avatar
jts
Oza
Posts: 2662
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:17 pm
Rank: kgs 6k
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 310 times
Been thanked: 632 times

Re: Are we humans or are we bots?

Post by jts »

1. I'm confident white's not a bot... I don't think even bad bots screw up and then immediately peep the way this W does. B probably isn't a bot. There are a few moves in the UL that seem weird, but it's probably just a joseki I don't know.

2. I'm not confident here. I plead not enough data. W12 is a move that bots are much more likely to play than humans, but W smacked around B so badly that there's nothing stylistically notable for either side.

3. White is a really bad human - there are "following B around" moves that I wouldn't expect from a computer, in addition to whimsical, meaningless moves that remind me of gnugo. I'm fairly confident B is a human too; B has laser-vision when it comes to following through on threats he has made.
Top
tapir
Lives in sente
Posts: 774
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:52 pm
GD Posts: 0
Has thanked: 137 times
Been thanked: 155 times
Contact:
Contact tapir

Re: Are we humans or are we bots?

Post by tapir »

I agree with gogameguru.

What stands out to me as particularly bot-like moves are 33 in game 2 - Black could draw back and enclose White instead of letting the White group escape and move 34 in game 3 - tenuki from the unsettled lower right corner. Especially the second would not happen to any dan level player who played several moves with the intent to make life for the group to then suddenly tenuki with the group still unsettled. Also, White in 2nd and Black in 3rd game play as if they were confident to outread their opponents.
Top
Mike Novack
Lives in sente
Posts: 1045
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:36 am
GD Posts: 0
Been thanked: 182 times

Re: Are we humans or are we bots?

Post by Mike Novack »

Please note.

We were told "dan level" so that means MCTS based programs not more than a couple years old. Older experience with how bots play is not going to be relevant.

Don't expect fixed patterns of play from the bots. MCTS doesn't work that way.

Don't rule out moves because particularly "fashionable" or diabolically clever. Only those programs using a go knowledge AI to prepare a plausible move set going to be limited in this way. Straightforward MCTS can find any "best move".

Do expect some "style" consistencies though these not might help much determining bot or human but then again might under certain circumstances. I haven't yet met a modern bot that played a "territorially tight" style so if you see that, guess human.
Top
hyperpape
Tengen
Posts: 4382
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 3:24 pm
Rank: AGA 3k
GD Posts: 65
OGS: Hyperpape 4k
Location: Caldas da Rainha, Portugal
Has thanked: 499 times
Been thanked: 727 times

Re: Are we humans or are we bots?

Post by hyperpape »

Mike
Hidden, because I don't want to bias other players. The point about fashionable moves is actually accurate. You're right that what you don't have to worry about is an opening/joseki book that rules out fashionable plays. However, a MCTS bot is no more likely to play a move that is fashionable today than a move that was fashionable 100 years ago, unlike human players who follow trends. And of course the bot is more likely to play a move that was never fashionable. So it is a potential indicator.
Top
Bill Spight
Honinbo
Posts: 10905
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
Has thanked: 3651 times
Been thanked: 3373 times

Re: Are we humans or are we bots?

Post by Bill Spight »

Humans or bots?

The two are not mutually contradictory. ;)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
Top
SmoothOper
Lives in sente
Posts: 946
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:38 am
Rank: IGS 5kyu
GD Posts: 0
KGS: KoDream
IGS: SmoothOper
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 41 times

Re: Are we humans or are we bots?

Post by SmoothOper »

1) Both are human 2) white is a bot 3) white is a bot

It is difficult to tell without knowing which bots were selected since I suspect that they can have styles as varied as the humans that code them, for example Monte Carlo vs. Many Faces or GNU go.

One of the signs that I would expect of a bot is to do very well in life and death situations such as white in 2 where a search would yield good results.

The other is to have a fuseki with many tenuki and and a conventional handicap fuseki as in three.

If the bots were trained on databases of prior professional games then they could be indistinguishable from the pros by me.
Top
Post Reply

Return to “General Go Chat”