In go, however, you must be able to play the game your opponent sets in front of you. Without reading ability born from tsumego and tesuji problems, this is much harder, especially once you leave the opening. Even in the opening, if you happen to play against a player like me, who ignores corners to stop common openings, and who tries to pick fights everywhere, you will have a hard time.SmoothOper wrote:I have a similar approach to music. Some people will spend hours practicing scales others will spend hours on very specific etudes mastering a specific technique. I spend hours memorizing and practicing songs and iterating on the difficult portions of the songs. Etudes and scales are secondary though some people swear by them.Shaddy wrote:Do you also believe that homework, for academic subjects, or practice, for instruments/sports/etc. is a waste of time? A pianist rarely if ever plays the simple pieces that he learns when beginning to play the piano, and many math homework problems I've done have never shown up (with the same numbers) again. According to your ideas, all of these are utter wastes of time.
It is a different approach, I will admit that I won't be able to play any piece of music that is set in front of me or improvise in any key, which may be a prerequisite of a professional musician, but I can play songs that people recognize, and they do sound good, and sometimes they are challenging pieces.
Balanced Attack
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Shaddy
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Re: Balanced Attack
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SmoothOper
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Re: Balanced Attack
So you are saying that white strategy is to invade black's moyo then employ a "Balanced Defense", where white constantly monitors the life status of various groups around the board and takes profit when possible?skydyr wrote:Did I misunderstand the question?
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SmoothOper
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Re: Balanced Attack
Defending overplays can get tedious, but I find the Chinese more challenging because the 3-4 it isn't invadable and has quite a bit of territory, furthermore it seems to be devised to take advantage of weak invasions on the sides.Shaddy wrote:In go, however, you must be able to play the game your opponent sets in front of you. Without reading ability born from tsumego and tesuji problems, this is much harder, especially once you leave the opening. Even in the opening, if you happen to play against a player like me, who ignores corners to stop common openings, and who tries to pick fights everywhere, you will have a hard time.SmoothOper wrote:I have a similar approach to music. Some people will spend hours practicing scales others will spend hours on very specific etudes mastering a specific technique. I spend hours memorizing and practicing songs and iterating on the difficult portions of the songs. Etudes and scales are secondary though some people swear by them.Shaddy wrote:Do you also believe that homework, for academic subjects, or practice, for instruments/sports/etc. is a waste of time? A pianist rarely if ever plays the simple pieces that he learns when beginning to play the piano, and many math homework problems I've done have never shown up (with the same numbers) again. According to your ideas, all of these are utter wastes of time.
It is a different approach, I will admit that I won't be able to play any piece of music that is set in front of me or improvise in any key, which may be a prerequisite of a professional musician, but I can play songs that people recognize, and they do sound good, and sometimes they are challenging pieces.
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Shaddy
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Re: Balanced Attack
I actually just stop the Chinese from happening in the first place.
Back when I didn't know how to handle sanrensei, there was a player that liked to play sanrensei every single game: so when I got white against him, I did this:
Yes, I'm a corner behind, but now the game's out of his known strategy. The result will now depend on fighting, where my reading shines, instead of strategy, where my opponent may be strong.
Yes, I'm a corner behind, but now the game's out of his known strategy. The result will now depend on fighting, where my reading shines, instead of strategy, where my opponent may be strong.
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SmoothOper
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Re: Balanced Attack
Shaddy wrote:I actually just stop the Chinese from happening in the first place. Back when I didn't know how to handle sanrensei, there was a player that liked to play sanrensei every single game: so when I got white against him, I did this:
Yes, I'm a corner behind, but now the game's out of his known strategy. The result will now depend on fighting, where my reading shines, instead of strategy, where my opponent may be strong.
I don't necessarily think that prevents the generalized Chinese Fuseki strategy, there are many variants up the side even the Kobayashi is considered in that group sometimes. Though that may prevent the specific five point low extension, and even that may get developed in the other corner.
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Mef
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Re: Balanced Attack
SmoothOper wrote:
I don't necessarily think that prevents the generalized Chinese Fuseki strategy, there are many variants up the side even the Kobayashi is considered in that group sometimes. Though that may prevent the specific five point low extension, and even that may get developed in the other corner.
If your opponent is dead set against you playing a certain strategy, there's virtually no way for you to force it (unless you hold black and want to play an opening based around the parallel Nirensei...you will always be able to make that shape).
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tchan001
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Re: Balanced Attack
Two people can play the same piece of music with all the notes correctly, but one may sound a lot better than the other.SmoothOper wrote:I have a similar approach to music. Some people will spend hours practicing scales others will spend hours on very specific etudes mastering a specific technique. I spend hours memorizing and practicing songs and iterating on the difficult portions of the songs. Etudes and scales are secondary though some people swear by them.
It is a different approach, I will admit that I won't be able to play any piece of music that is set in front of me or improvise in any key, which may be a prerequisite of a professional musician, but I can play songs that people recognize, and they do sound good, and sometimes they are challenging pieces.
Some people are satisfied if they can play all the notes correctly, other people want more.
Some people are satisfied having kyu strength, other people want more.
http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.
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Shaddy
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Re: Balanced Attack
There are two Chinese fusekis that I know of (the normal one, and mini - the micro-chinese is almost the same as those), and both of them put a stone on the side I've approached the 3-4 from. The Kobayashi is markedly different from the Chinese opening, and I wouldn't put it in the same group; it puts all of your eggs in one basket, but the Chinese opening has a backup plan.SmoothOper wrote:Shaddy wrote:...
I don't necessarily think that prevents the generalized Chinese Fuseki strategy, there are many variants up the side even the Kobayashi is considered in that group sometimes. Though that may prevent the specific five point low extension, and even that may get developed in the other corner.
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Shaddy
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Re: Balanced Attack
For reference:
Kobayashi Chinese (a for micro, I saw b called the 'American opening' as a joke at someone who tried to play the Chinese but got it wrong) Mini-chinese (a for micro)
Kobayashi Chinese (a for micro, I saw b called the 'American opening' as a joke at someone who tried to play the Chinese but got it wrong) Mini-chinese (a for micro)
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speedchase
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Re: Balanced Attack
All you have to do to stop any chinese fuseki as white is immediately approach any 3-4 that is played. You don't even have to give a corner to do this because when you approach a 3-4, and your opponent leaves it, it belongs half to each sides.SmoothOper wrote: I don't necessarily think that prevents the generalized Chinese Fuseki strategy, there are many variants up the side even the Kobayashi is considered in that group sometimes. Though that may prevent the specific five point low extension, and even that may get developed in the other corner.
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golem7
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Re: Balanced Attack
If you're actually serious with this, the only one you're ridiculing is yourself. But enough of that.SmoothOper wrote:I am asking golem7 to contribute something, so that I can ridicule him for being an amateur, and not knowing any strategy.
I'll make one more attempt at a civilised answer. I don't visit 19*19 every day so forgive my late reply. If you read my post carefully you'd notice I never advised against studying strategy. But what you need to understand is that the prerequisite for good strategy is good reading. You will encounter tsumego problems in every game you play. Not only life & death but also enclosing, cutting and escaping problems. Of course these won't often be the same problems you trained with. But tsumego is not about remembering the solutions to all the problems and using them in games. The point is training your ability to read ahead which is the single most important skill for your playing strength.
(Btw some helpful people actually provided examples of common l&d situations arising from a chinese fuseki but you didn't care to comment them.)
I like the comparison to making music. You admit that with your approach you aren't able to improvise freely. In a game of go however you have to improvise all the time because you have to adapt to your opponent's play. Think of your reading ability as your improvisation muscle which you need for all stages of the game. You can also train this by seriously playing, of course. But you won't always have a partner ready to play with you so that's what tsumego is for.
One more thing: if you actually want to learn something, I suggest showing some humility and respect to people who want to help you and actually take the time to answer your questions (and btw are much stronger than you). This will not only help your go strength but also all other areas of your life.
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SmoothOper
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Re: Balanced Attack
Golem7, I thought in whatever language you spoke, calling someone an amateur was a way to make some chums, so I replied in kind. Evidently you have not read my posts very well, since you haven't seen that I said maybe 10% of tsumego were actually useful in a game, ironic since you believe in reading so much, but as it stands I have yet to see a tsumego from you that would contribute to this conversation about strategy in the Chinese Fuseki.golem7 wrote:If you're actually serious with this, the only one you're ridiculing is yourself. But enough of that.SmoothOper wrote:I am asking golem7 to contribute something, so that I can ridicule him for being an amateur, and not knowing any strategy.
I'll make one more attempt at a civilised answer. I don't visit 19*19 every day so forgive my late reply. If you read my post carefully you'd notice I never advised against studying strategy. But what you need to understand is that the prerequisite for good strategy is good reading. You will encounter tsumego problems in every game you play. Not only life & death but also enclosing, cutting and escaping problems. Of course these won't often be the same problems you trained with. But tsumego is not about remembering the solutions to all the problems and using them in games. The point is training your ability to read ahead which is the single most important skill for your playing strength.
(Btw some helpful people actually provided examples of common l&d situations arising from a chinese fuseki but you didn't care to comment them.)
I like the comparison to making music. You admit that with your approach you aren't able to improvise freely. In a game of go however you have to improvise all the time because you have to adapt to your opponent's play. Think of your reading ability as your improvisation muscle which you need for all stages of the game. You can also train this by seriously playing, of course. But you won't always have a partner ready to play with you so that's what tsumego is for.
One more thing: if you actually want to learn something, I suggest showing some humility and respect to people who want to help you and actually take the time to answer your questions (and btw are much stronger than you). This will not only help your go strength but also all other areas of your life.
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daal
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Re: Balanced Attack
What's ironic, is that three people replied to your request for Chinese Fuseki-related tsumego, and instead of thanking them for their contribution or even acknowledging as you said you would that tsumego is indeed relevant to strategic considerations, you complain that the person you asked hasn't responded with information others have already offered.SmoothOper wrote:... ironic since you believe in reading so much, but as it stands I have yet to see a tsumego from you that would contribute to this conversation about strategy in the Chinese Fuseki.
Patience, grasshopper.
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SmoothOper
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Re: Balanced Attack
Maybe Golem7 should thank them, then again maybe he understood the sarcasm in the question.daal wrote:What's ironic, is that three people replied to your request for Chinese Fuseki-related tsumego, and instead of thanking them for their contribution or even acknowledging as you said you would that tsumego is indeed relevant to strategic considerations, you complain that the person you asked hasn't responded with information others have already offered.SmoothOper wrote:... ironic since you believe in reading so much, but as it stands I have yet to see a tsumego from you that would contribute to this conversation about strategy in the Chinese Fuseki.
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Polama
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Re: Balanced Attack
May I suggest an alternative way of looking at Tsumego? From your arguments, you seem to view them as training your ability to read out paths to life in artificial situations. I'd argue that the reason they're about living and dying is only because that makes a nice, straightforward puzzle. The point of doing 1,000 problems that involve some variation of "get your opponents stones into a squeeze to kill them" isn't necessarily because you'll get the chance to kill stones that way in many games, but because more often you will get the chance to form some extra influence with a squeeze in the middle of the board, or will spot a honte move stopping a squeeze that would scuttle an attack you want to pursue.
Tsumego are about spotting opportunities for tesuji, prioritizing different moves involved in an attack, exploiting liberty counts, etc. These all arise very naturally in a game. The problem is that "White to reinforce connection in such a way that he also puts pressure on black's stones" is lousy instructions for a puzzle. So useful patterns are transformed into artificial problems so that a lesson more likely to be put into practice running out with the least aji becomes the solution to finding life for a group.
In a game, missing a tesuji might mean something that could've been sente is now gote, or you've jumped out one space when you could've gotten away with two. It's difficult to realize, even in review, that the move was a mistake. If you just can't see the solution to a tsumego, there are going to be analagous situations you'll also miss in a game and never realize you missed them.
Go is a hobby for us, so there's no need to do tsumego if you don't like them: It's a wonderful game at all levels. But the idea that only 10% of tsumego have something to train us in strikes me as too literal a look at them. Yes, the positions are artificial. But you aren't learning just that configuration of stones, you're learning to see how the aspects of Go interact on a more instinctive level and training your ability to hold more and longer sequences in mind.
Tsumego are about spotting opportunities for tesuji, prioritizing different moves involved in an attack, exploiting liberty counts, etc. These all arise very naturally in a game. The problem is that "White to reinforce connection in such a way that he also puts pressure on black's stones" is lousy instructions for a puzzle. So useful patterns are transformed into artificial problems so that a lesson more likely to be put into practice running out with the least aji becomes the solution to finding life for a group.
In a game, missing a tesuji might mean something that could've been sente is now gote, or you've jumped out one space when you could've gotten away with two. It's difficult to realize, even in review, that the move was a mistake. If you just can't see the solution to a tsumego, there are going to be analagous situations you'll also miss in a game and never realize you missed them.
Go is a hobby for us, so there's no need to do tsumego if you don't like them: It's a wonderful game at all levels. But the idea that only 10% of tsumego have something to train us in strikes me as too literal a look at them. Yes, the positions are artificial. But you aren't learning just that configuration of stones, you're learning to see how the aspects of Go interact on a more instinctive level and training your ability to hold more and longer sequences in mind.