Yes, I’d probably also shed a tear.

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“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS?

I can't understand why they can't just ship an additional 4 stones of the correct colour for you.

It would make sense as a supplier if you are doing a reasonable-ish volume of sets to have a full spare set of Whites and Blacks to send off in bits and pieces to those with problems purely out of the goal of customer satisfaction.

I don't know what the laws are where you're from, but in the UK, equipment arriving not complete or broken leaves you entitled to a full refend whether they like it or not (and that's outside of statutory distance selling regulations - again in UK law).

Similar in Germany.

Plus, you can return any internet purchase within 14 days without giving any reason. (Of course within reasonable boundaries, this wouldn’t work for underwear you’ve used meanwhile )

See Hebsacker’s TOS page for how they handle things http://www.hebsacker-verlag.de/conditions.php and contact them again, they’re actually nice people.

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“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS?

I did post that I received 179 of each in my other post about that buy. Maybe if you had read that you would have seen it as normal, wouldn't have cared and you'd be happier now.

While it may be true that they're technically liable for the stones, I guess I just figure it's not really worth the hassle on either end for "the principle of the thing"

I also got Yunzi's a while back and I also had a few broken ones, though almost none have broken since. I don't think I would have felt bothered unless the numbers got down to 150-160 each or the like, at which point you have to make lots of prisoner exchanges.

(And I love them, there's something wonderful about the finality of the single-convex snap. It's a very simple "the move is completed", not a shuddering "The hand of god is mine." The matte finish also just doesn't draw as much attention as shiny glass or clamshell. They're great because they don't distract at all)

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Tactics yes, Tact no...

Dear amphipoda,



you should have told us about it! We did not know that we've produced such an anger. Normally, it is really not a kind of a problem to have only about 180 stones of one colour. I play Go for about 30 years now and I've played a lot - and only ONE time I really needed a full set of 180 stones per colour. But if it is really a problem for you, we of course send you some replacement stones, NO PROBLEM, really! Send us an email with the number of stones you need per colour to get a set of 181 black and 180 white stones. We will send them as soon as possible!

And for later problems, we of course also offer top-up packs of glass and yunzi stones.

Kind regards, Tobias Berben (Hebsacker Verlag)

I expect that saying this might upset some people, but in my experience it's mainly Japanese and Western people who really care a lot about there being precisely 181/180 stones in a set.

It's quite rare for a game to go for more than 300 moves, so being able to cover the whole board with stones is sort of overkill, especially if you play with Chinese rules.

A lot of cheaper sets from China and Korea don't even have 180 stones, but 160 instead. For example this one: http://shop.gogameguru.com/go-bento-box/ and various glass and plastic sets that I've had in the past.

I've found that most Chinese and Korean people really don't care how many stones there are in a set as long as there are 'enough'. They're more interested in just playing Go and the stones are a means to an end. The exception to this is when buying an expensive set of slate and shell stones (or stones some other expensive material like agate), because in that case you're paying for quality and that usually involves the service of having 181/180 stones carefully counted out.

I've had the experience of asking both Korean and Chinese manufacturers about whether there were 180 stones for cheaper sets and was treated like an idiot both times. (note that Yunzi are Chinese stones)

Normally if someone tells me they've received a new set with some stones broken on arrival I'll send them new ones as a service, but in Hebsacker Verlag's defense they seem to have fairly cheap packs of replacement stones on their site (I've just been looking at it), which is a good idea for later.

I used to sell Yunzi (before starting Go Game Guru) and they do seem to be more brittle than other glass stones, and hence break more easily during shipping. It's also quite possible that single convex stones break more easily because the shape isn't as strong.

EDIT: Oh, Hebsacker Verlag replied with a link to those stones while I was writing this

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David

Go Game Guru: Learn Go | How to Get Better at Go | Go Game Shop | Go Boards | Baduk TV

I have had very good experiences with Hebsacker concerning after buying service. On one occasion, I orderd several books, but one was missing and one I got I didn't order. I phoned with them and they were very understanding. The next day I got my send-back package, and the book I ordered the day after.

We normally try our best, be sure about that!
We love the game, not the money - otherwise we would not do the job ...

Kind regards, Tobias Berben

I recently bought a set of Korean glass stones, and there were more than 180 Black ones, and less than 180 white ones. Nonetheless, when I put them into my bowls, not all of the white ones fit, so the set I now use has about 180 black stones and 160 white ones - so that they look good in the bowls. :p



Pictures!

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Patience, grasshopper.

My experience with yunzi in general is that the manufacturing process can leave voids in the material where the sintering did not fully occur. If you hold up some of the stones to the light, you can sometimes see bubbles where this is the case (particularly in black stones). I haven't heard of many, if any, breaking without a serious trauma after the first use or two, however. It seems that shipping and a bit of playing at most is all that is needed to weed out the bad eggs.

That's weird. Black stones are a little bigger than the white ones. So black stones should be more full in the bowls, when the quantity is same.

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Amsterdam, soon.

I've heard of a yunzi stone exploding. It wasn't severe, and most likely rare as hell, but it happened.

I've seen one or two break like that, but never in a set that had been used for a while.

Hi everyone,

First of all thank you very much for contributing so many different view points and advices regarding my initial request. I am very much impressed by your generosity in helping resolving this issue and providing an interesting discussion about yunzi stones in general.

From my side, I'd like to conclude my original problem with some comments:

- @bonobo: thanks for contributing contextual information about Hebsacker. It was certainly not my intention to badmouth Go enthusiasts. That said, from the outside, and from the viewpoint of a Go beginner, it is impossible to tell the difference between people trying to ethically moneytise a passion, and those who see mass selling of Go equipment as an opportunity to make a quick buck.

- On the question of what stones to buy: Saying that getting stones A or B is a personal taste is only half the story. When you start looking into Go, like me right now, the amount of information is absolutely overwhelming. It is very hard to figure out how to get started, what to buy, etc. There are no Go clubs where I live so the only information I can have access to is web based. To complicate things further Go is different from short lived mass consumerist products, Go is a cultural artefact with a rich history and it is not obvious to navigate in such a rhizome when you start. Said differently, since I started to look into Go last September, I acquired a lot of horizontal knowledge with little to no depth. I ended up buying yunzi as a result of this navigation in such a knowledge. It was a personal choice, but one that is merely the result of limited information on the topic.

- @Alguien: Just to clear things up, I hope you did not read my reference to your post as an indirect way to hold you responsible to have chosen to order at Hebsacker. I was just mentioning how I learned about the shop, no more no less. It is a shame indeed that I completely missed the part about the 179 stones. I guess was mostly focussing on your mesmerising photos!

- On the issue of the number of stones: I appreciate equally the feedback from people who understand my frustration and also the kind reminder from others that I should avoid falling into an obsessive trap. Of course I can play with less stones, but next to the commercial transaction issue, I want to add that being a beginner, the games I played with my family at xmas involves a lot of capturing as we are not so much refined strategists yet. In such beginner games the amount of stones used on the Goban and taken as prisoners is very large, not to the point where all the stones where used, but close enough to motivate me to ask for the missing ones. Next to that, one thing that triggered my interest in Go is its rich cultural and historical context, so having read about the the relationship between the go board and the lunar year, the number of stones becomes, if not magical, maybe one of these subconscious factors that make you enjoy Go more than more contemporary creations.

- Hebsacker: Thank you for taking the trouble to come here and respond to this issue. Do not mistake this thread for anger, if anything, it is frustration and insecurity. As I said, I am a beginner in this community/scene/subculture and it is unclear to me what is acceptable or not, what are the unspoken rules in such cases, etc. I gladly accept your offer to send me the missing four stones and will certainly order to your shop again.

And now I shall play a bit...

This doesn't change anything about your post, but one thing to remember is that if you run out of stones, you can do a "prisoner exchange" with your opponent. I kind of think of it as adding a spy element to the war that is go

Each player takes an equal number of prisoners and places them into their respective bowls.

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Founder, Central Mississippi Go Club
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Ooooh I did not know this one. Nice

Usually I’d only have clicked “like” on that button in your post but since that thought befell me that perhaps not everybody has the forum skin that shows likes I fear I must respond a little bit more often with “me too” or “cool” or “thank you” or the like.

Very nice conclusion <like>

GG

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“The only difference between me and a madman is that I’m not mad.” — Salvador Dali ★ Play a slooooow correspondence game with me on OGS?

Play on 9x9, your family might have more fun that way.

I remember that my very first go games on 19x19 were actually almost capture-free, as we peacefully divided the board into uncontested territories. Of course, that was after some tactical explorations on 9x9.

Also from a theoretical perspective: There's no upper limit to the amount of moves in a go game. So 181+180 stones will not necessarily be enough either, you might still have to exchange prisoners.

Glad to hear this is resolved.