Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo

[topazg]

$$Wc Score - B: 28, W: 17
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m W . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Score - B: 28, W: 17
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m W . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

One thing that's really interesting about this game, is that the plus points are really 3 point gote moves if they are inside your own territory, so they aren't all that big. If Black takes the point at the top, he gets 5 points, but he also loses 2 as I get a point of territory and the prisoner, and does so in gote. In which case, it seems much bigger to take all the big edge points, and the take the "p" points when 3 points gote is actually reasonably worth playing.

[MountainGo]

This is tough, I'll have to think about it. I'll probably make my move tomorrow.

[Dusk Eagle]

I was really looking forward to this move:

$$Wc Score - B: 20, W: 13
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X X W . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O X . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Score - B: 20, W: 13
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X X W . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O X . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

[topazg]

I was really looking forward to this move:

$$Wc Score - B: 20, W: 13
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X X W . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O X . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Score - B: 20, W: 13
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X X W . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O X . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

I considered it, but after he cuts on the minus point. I'm dead without him having to play the other one I think. If true, that's a good 20 points to make up for the 5 he lost, and I decided I couldn't afford to be right

[prokofiev]

An interesting comparison:

If black were to effect this, it would be worth say 14 points in gote for black, minus the value of white's somewhat improved outward thickness:
(not saying this is a position that would ever happen... just placing down a small "successful invasion")

$$Bc Score - B: 28, W: 17
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . W B B . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ W B . B |
$$ | . . m O . . . W m B B |
$$ | . . . . . . . . @ W W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Score - B: 28, W: 17
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . W B B . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ W B . B |
$$ | . . m O . . . W m B B |
$$ | . . . . . . . . @ W W |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

Getting White to play the minus point in his own territory in sente somehow is worth 5 points in sente for black, which is only 2 points less than 14/2 = 7, and then add as well the value of any aji black creates this way.

A possible approach to this:

$$Bc Score - B: 28, W: 17
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . 2 . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . 1 4 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Score - B: 28, W: 17
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . 2 . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . 1 4 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

Of course White can resist and things become interesting:

$$Bc Score - B: 28, W: 17
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . 2 . . |
$$ | . . m O . . 5 1 m 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Score - B: 28, W: 17
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . 2 . . |
$$ | . . m O . . 5 1 m 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

[freegame]

wow, this looks like sooo much fun

I also want to give this a try.
If anyone is interested in a simmilar game let me know.
I don't mind the rank I just want to try this out and have some fun.

good luck topazg & MountainGo

[Phelan]

wow, this looks like sooo much fun

I also want to give this a try.
If anyone is interested in a simmilar game let me know.
I don't mind the rank I just want to try this out and have some fun.

good luck topazg & MountainGo

Post in the other thread, you might be luckier in getting an opponent: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=145

[MountainGo]

$$Wc Score - B: 29, W: 17
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Score - B: 29, W: 17
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

I am playing my hidden stone. I'll send Phelan the location.

The pros seem to like to use the hidden stone in the late middle game or endgame, but I'd just like to see how using it a bit earlier might work out. I like the idea of making him worry early on and constantly question his moves until he finds my stone.

[topazg]

$$Wc Score - B: 29, W: 18
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Score - B: 29, W: 18
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

I'll probably find it as we fight in a big mess, then I'll use mine too ..

[Phelan]

Hidden stone played at

an intersection. Don't look in here!

[MountainGo]

$$Wc Score - B: 30, W: 18
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . O . . . B . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Score - B: 30, W: 18
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . O . . . B . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

I've been going back and forth and all around between lots of moves in this area, being very indecisive. I don't know if this is the best move, but I don't want to spend any more time thinking about it. There are basically two aims of this move: (1) to freak him out about where my hidden stone might be, hopefully getting him to scan an empty point (although this probably won't happen since the elephant's eye is both where it looks like my stone might be and where he would like to play himself, so he'll just play there instead of scanning) and (2) to get in a sente reduction before I kill his lower right stone in gote. The downside to this move is that it looks like textbook aji keshi, a thank-you move that asks him to fix his elephant's jump.

I also considered trying to get in some kind of sente move against his lower left, again with the idea of freaking him out while he doesn't know where my hidden stone is, but the carpenter's square is really complicated, and I couldn't convince myself that I wasn't going to end in gote or suffer a loss if he responded correctly.

p.s. Don't read Phelan's hidden message! It contains the ultimate truth of the universe, too much for any human to survive!

[Phelan]

$$Wc Score - B: 30, W: 16
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . O . . . B . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Score - B: 30, W: 16
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . O . . . B . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

Points changed(-2), topazg made a scan. Do I have to say where? I can't find it in the rules you guys agreed to.

[topazg]

I think scans are hidden - you just tell me if I found his hidden stone or not. If not, then that's fine too

[topazg]

Time to play my hidden move ... (sent to Phelan) +1 point to White as normal.

[topazg]

$$Wc Score - B: 30, W: 17
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Score - B: 30, W: 17
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

And my hidden move is at:

Ok, I'm going to trust MHO opponent here, but this is supposed to be a spectator game, so my hidden move is at:

$$Wc Score - B: 30, W: 17
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . O . . W X . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Score - B: 30, W: 17
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . O . . W X . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]