Opening/middlegame problem from my game
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topazg
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Re: Opening/middlegame problem from my game
My immediate instinct on first glance was N15, and I still like it. Bill gave my reasons better than I could explain them I think, but the honest answer is it sort of aims at a right side frameworky thing and White is going to owe a move up there (or suffer somewhat from invading and allowing Black to follow up there). Either way, it feels the biggest area on the board to play next.
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Magicwand
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Re: Opening/middlegame problem from my game
Uberdude wrote:
Playing simple moves when ahead I certainly agree with, but taking a big yose is not what I would call a simplifying move. If any black group is going to get in trouble in this position it is q14. Therefore if I want to simplify a winning position I would play to settle it. Taking the money at d6 would give white sente to start fighting on the right side and then the game could get complicated.
Also, in terms of points, isn't r17 invasion (assuming black blocks at r16 after q17) bigger than 15 points?
It is more than 15 points for sure...
assuming i play to save that stones..
this is perfect for black...
i like this for black also...
this is also good for black..
can you give me other variation that will be good for white?
i think if you dont save and lose sente for some reason...white's gain is too much.
for that reason i choose to save them
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
The greater the unknown"
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Uberdude
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Re: Opening/middlegame problem from my game
Magicwand wrote:can you give me other variation that will be good for white?
To be honest, I'm not exactly sure what I'm scared of white doing with sente on the right. It just seemed the biggest area to me. At the time there was part a psychological aspect to not saving those stones: in order to settle my group there I had temporarily sacrificed them, and white agreed that was correct because he didn't take the bait and settled his lower group too (see the sgf in my first hidden post). And then it feels like a bit of a game of chicken who is going to admit those stones are big and take the big gote yose instead of playing elsewhere.
I suppose your way of saving them you see as safe, as it is points in the bank. If you play on the right to make some big moyo and white gets a chance to get d6, then you have to make sure you get a lot from your moyo which could be a risk. Instead you decide not to try to make anything big on the right, basically treating the areas as miai and saying "I grab these points and am clearly ahead now, something will happen on the right, black'll get a few points, white'll get a few points and then I'm still ahead". Correct?
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Magicwand
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Re: Opening/middlegame problem from my game
correct..
i guess there is no correct answer in go...
...
just different perspective
i guess there is no correct answer in go...
...
just different perspective
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Uberdude
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Re: Opening/middlegame problem from my game
Yeah, at first when you and logan said D6 I was very surprised, but now I've spelt it out like that I can appreciate that way of playing more, though I still think I prefer my q18 or Bill's n15.
Thanks all for the input.
Thanks all for the input.
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Uberdude
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Re: Opening/middlegame problem from my game
An update from our superhuman AI future: Katago likes Magicwand's d6 to take the cash! But the other choices discussed here like my q18 were ok too, within a point or two, so as black's leading, by 13-11 points says KG, pick the one you like to play 
. Some discussion on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/go.igo. ... 813291514/
. Some discussion on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/go.igo. ... 813291514/-
Knotwilg
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Re: Opening/middlegame problem from my game
A little late to the party, here's my choice, not having read any of the replies:
Now I will read the other comments.
will only establish 100% life for White's group and not seal off the center.
the moyo at the center and right is perhaps too big and too easy to invade, which will make those moves end up neutral.
would be my way of dealing with the important area as White.-
Knotwilg
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Re: Opening/middlegame problem from my game
That's surprising: "face value" is 9 points gote (or "double gote"). With the upper right still in a contested state, very much like in the opening, it is surprising such (large) endgame is bigger. So it means there is substantial effect on the stability of the white stones above it.Uberdude wrote:An update from our superhuman AI future: Katago likes Magicwand's d6 to take the cash! But the other choices discussed here like my q18 were ok too, within a point or two, so as black's leading, by 13-11 points says KG, pick the one you like to play
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Uberdude
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Re: Opening/middlegame problem from my game
The pure territory value of d6 is more like 15 points. As well as the 8 from the 4 stones there's White not getting d4 and black getting f5 as E5 becomes sente privilege of whoever connects, plus black gets b9 sente yose tesuji so White saves about 5 points in b8 area.
On top of that's there's the harder to quantify bonus of splitting white so f11 and b12 have better follow-ups, plus some ko threats against corner. Actually maybe 1 more point semedori with A2 as well.
On top of that's there's the harder to quantify bonus of splitting white so f11 and b12 have better follow-ups, plus some ko threats against corner. Actually maybe 1 more point semedori with A2 as well.