149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:12 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 . O . 4 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Loons · Post by **Loons** » Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:02 pm

My comments thus far have been pretty banal, either play is welcome to read any of them.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:48 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 . O . 4 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Embiggen my eyespace. I expect white to block at b18 to stop my group easily making 2 eyes in the corner, though I do wonder if just tenuki to a big point like k17 could be better: if I play c18 gote afterwards and white gets another big move like o17 approach I spent 2 gotes to live in the corner which is a bit crap. Compare this to if he tenukid for 36 and allowed me to play 3-3 myself then I easily make 2 eyes in the corner with just one gote. In that respect c17 for b17 is a great exchange for white already. b17 is also big for the eyespace of white's group: if he totally tenukis then h17 for me can attack his group somewhat, though with my weakish group on the left I have to be careful too.

As an aside, this reminds me of an interesting comment from Matthew Macfadyen 6d when he was reviewing a game of his, I think against Nick Krempel at the British Challengers tournament a couple of years ago. That was that he didn't want to attack Nick's group at that time as if he does so, Nick would play yose moves in sente which threaten to make eyes so Matthew would be compelled to answer them. But if he doesn't attack and those moves were played in the endgame then they could be gote. This was a very interesting perspective I hadn't considered before as usually it is the player attacking who is making profit in sente, but here is an example of the attackee making profit in sente. This b17 push is a common big yose move, something like 15-18 points in the common joseki below. Of course as well as pure yose it can have eyespace implications which is the major factor in this game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Classic big yose $$ ---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . a 5 . . 3 . . . . $$ | . 4 . 1 . . . . . , $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . ,[/go]

If he tenukis I also have this standard technique that is more severe than just c18, but he can resist and cut off my c14 stone which makes his huge moyo into territory so I don't like it on this board:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm38 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 | $$ | b 9 4 5 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O 6 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X 7 O 3 O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . a c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Another move I considered was the b11 push. However, because of white's c8 stone the c10 cut is captured in a ladder so it is gote to save those stones. Thus I plan to get this corner push in sente and then end with that gote to make my eyespace. Although the c10 cut doesn't work yet, its aji is a resource I can use to help my groupwill help my group. e.g if white caps at a then b-c-d is one option.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm37 Plan $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . a . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O b d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 O c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:13 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 . O . 4 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:30 pm

@Uberdude

It seems like this sequence could be transposed like so:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 . O . 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If the game had gone that way, would you still make the a-b exchange?

daal · Post by **daal** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:48 pm

Uberdude wrote:The default is currently that kibitz is only to be read at game end, perhaps it would be better if the default were kibitz can be read once play has moved from that area of the board and comments about future possibilities are the ones that should be explicitly marked as "not until game over"? Thoughts?

Sometimes people unhide comments they've become irrelevant to the current board position, but I don't know if you want to constantly be checking the thread for un-hidden posts. As to your suggestion, it's not necessarily clear which area of the board a hidden post refers to.

I guess I understand your desire to take part in the conversation, but when you're playing a malkovitch game, your job is to entertain and enlighten us, and you should know that you're doing a good job at it, but if you want to take part in the kibbitz, it's probably easier to do it in other people's games.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:05 pm

@emeraldemon

emeraldemon wrote:@Uberdude

It seems like this sequence could be transposed like so:

$$Wcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . O . 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 . O . 3 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If the game had gone that way, would you still make the a-b exchange?

Maybe, the other choice would be to play on the outside, e.g. e12, but I have some vague wories about white stubbornly taking away my eyeshape with a move like c13. I prefer to just live as quickly as possible. Also there is no guarantee I can get that exchange: white might not answer with nobi to b, but hane at b11, and then my eyespace is smaller. By playing the attachment first as a probe I can change my next moves based on how white answers.

One idea would be this attachment against the corner to settle:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 0 9 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 3 4 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 O 5 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Or this strange looking descent which makes miai of a and b.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Or the double approach gets more interesting now that black has left cutting points with the hane:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 2 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

These last 2 ideas are covered in the Tournament Go 1992 book, Shuko used this attachment in a similar position in the Oza title match.

And of course playing the 2nd line attachment first gets you bonus kudos points for awesomeness.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:30 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm31 Prisoners: $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 9 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . O X . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O O O X . O , X . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . X . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

lemmata · Post by **lemmata** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:59 pm

Here's rare footage of Magicwand waiting for Uberdude to arrive. Too obscure...or just right?

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:44 pm

B10

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:25 pm

lemmata wrote:Here's rare footage... Too obscure...or just right?

I could tell within the first 1+ second (and promptly paused it, because I wanted to see no more.)

Too famous.
I've never seen this movie, or any other video/TV version before,
but of course I'd read the book (and the manga).

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:50 pm

EdLee wrote:
lemmata wrote:Here's rare footage... Too obscure...or just right?
I could tell within the first 1+ second (and promptly paused it, because I wanted to see no more.)
Too famous.
I've never seen this movie, or any other video/TV version before,
but of course I'd read the book (and the manga).

I have seen two other versions, one in the last movie of the Samurai trilogy, with Toshiro Mifune as Musashi, and another in a movie called Kojiro, a sympathetic (and, to me, sappy) portrayal of Sasaki, who was cast as a villain in the Samurai trilogy. This version struck me as medium sappy.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:56 pm

Bill, have you read Inoue Takehiko's version? I highly recommend it; I think it's superb, brilliant, fantastic.

Bonobo · Post by **Bonobo** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:30 am

lemmata wrote:Here's rare footage of Magicwand waiting for Uberdude to arrive. Too obscure...or just right?
[..]

Not dramatic enough.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:31 am

EdLee wrote:Bill, have you read Inoue Takehiko's version? I highly recommend it; I think it's superb, brilliant, fantastic.

No, I haven't. Thanks.

Life In 19x19

149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

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Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

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Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

Re: 149. Uberdude vs Magicwand

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