Ohashi Hirofumi 6-dan has been experimenting crazy things recently:
http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/32022
http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/32023
http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/32024
Ohashi Hirofumi's new opening
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lobotommy
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Re: Ohashi Hirofumi's new opening
I can't believe it, a pro who plays MY fuseki...
I played it a lot since 2009/2010 but stopped last year, and now only komoku - back to the roots
http://www.online-go.com/games/board.php?boardID=306904
I played it a lot since 2009/2010 but stopped last year, and now only komoku - back to the roots
http://www.online-go.com/games/board.php?boardID=306904
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EdLee
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ez4u
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Re: Ohashi Hirofumi's new opening
I can't believe the OP's timing. I transcribed the first two games from Ohashi's blog on Wednesday night, but it was too late to write a post. Now I am beaten to the starting gate! 
You can't keep a good loudmouth down though. 
The earliest game (last in the list in the OP but played last October) passed with very little comment. Ohashi posted a diagram of the first four moves in his blog under the heading "...if aliens played go..."
The second game though (second played and second in the OP), has some background. Ohashi is another product of Kikuchi Yasuro's Go school Ryokusei Gakuen. When he entered as an elementary school student, Muramatsu Ryuichi was very active as an instructor. Ohashi feels that he owes Muramatsu a lot for his role in Ohashi's development into a professional. Ohashi wrote that he recalled Muramatsu playing Black 1 on 6-6 when teaching the kids, so when facing him in the Judan preliminaries Ohashi (with his current interest in center-oriented play) chose 6-6 out of respect. Muramatsu's reply at 7-5 in the opposite corner surprized but delighted Ohashi - the fight was on! After "long thought (or at least a little)" Ohashi played
although he confesses it would be difficult to explain exactly why. When White responded with 
, Black took the opportunity to complete what he called the Orion's Belt Formation of 1-3-5. When White played 
, Black answered with 
. At this point Ohashi offered the opinion that if the game had started with a Black play on 4-4, the following exchange of three White stones for three Black stones would not leave Black feeling any dissatisfaction.
The most recent game (first in the OP) was a case of following up on the earlier 6-6 experiment. This time White replies with a "normal" 4-4 play in the opposite corner. Ohashi is not sure, however, what "normal" really means in openings like this. In any case, as White reacts around the sides, Black proceeds around the board and builds a 4-cornered shape.
After this something "strange" happens. By the time forty plays have been made, the board looks essentially normal. Only the exchange of the marked Black stone for
look like something that could not come out of typical joseki-like play.
And it gets worse. After sixty-six plays Black has even claimed three corners. As he says, this was weird, even for him!
You can't keep a good loudmouth down though. The earliest game (last in the list in the OP but played last October) passed with very little comment. Ohashi posted a diagram of the first four moves in his blog under the heading "...if aliens played go..."
The second game though (second played and second in the OP), has some background. Ohashi is another product of Kikuchi Yasuro's Go school Ryokusei Gakuen. When he entered as an elementary school student, Muramatsu Ryuichi was very active as an instructor. Ohashi feels that he owes Muramatsu a lot for his role in Ohashi's development into a professional. Ohashi wrote that he recalled Muramatsu playing Black 1 on 6-6 when teaching the kids, so when facing him in the Judan preliminaries Ohashi (with his current interest in center-oriented play) chose 6-6 out of respect. Muramatsu's reply at 7-5 in the opposite corner surprized but delighted Ohashi - the fight was on! After "long thought (or at least a little)" Ohashi played
although he confesses it would be difficult to explain exactly why. When White responded with , Black took the opportunity to complete what he called the Orion's Belt Formation of 1-3-5. When White played , Black answered with . At this point Ohashi offered the opinion that if the game had started with a Black play on 4-4, the following exchange of three White stones for three Black stones would not leave Black feeling any dissatisfaction. The most recent game (first in the OP) was a case of following up on the earlier 6-6 experiment. This time White replies with a "normal" 4-4 play in the opposite corner. Ohashi is not sure, however, what "normal" really means in openings like this. In any case, as White reacts around the sides, Black proceeds around the board and builds a 4-cornered shape.
After this something "strange" happens. By the time forty plays have been made, the board looks essentially normal. Only the exchange of the marked Black stone for
look like something that could not come out of typical joseki-like play.And it gets worse. After sixty-six plays Black has even claimed three corners. As he says, this was weird, even for him!
Last edited by ez4u on Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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RobertJasiek
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Re: Ohashi Hirofumi's new opening
These openings by Ohashi Hirofumi and Gan Siyang, their moves and shapes are not new but coincide with mine since 2004 in center opening games. In particular, it is good to
- reply with move 2 in the diagonally opposing corner if one wants to reply by a corner move,
- extend with a slope to have better connection than after an extension along the grid lines,
- create and, if possible, use options to build triangles or boxes,
- revert the game to ordinary waters until the "middle game",
- take territory in corners or on sides if White denies black moyos to be converted to territory.
Did they reinvent the same ideas or copy mine? Anyway, it is nice to see that openings become a bit more flexible.
- reply with move 2 in the diagonally opposing corner if one wants to reply by a corner move,
- extend with a slope to have better connection than after an extension along the grid lines,
- create and, if possible, use options to build triangles or boxes,
- revert the game to ordinary waters until the "middle game",
- take territory in corners or on sides if White denies black moyos to be converted to territory.
Did they reinvent the same ideas or copy mine? Anyway, it is nice to see that openings become a bit more flexible.
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Uberdude
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Re: Ohashi Hirofumi's new opening
I am sure Japanese pros are avid readers of Robert Jasiek's works to increase their understanding of Go.RobertJasiek wrote:Did they reinvent the same ideas or copy mine?
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RobertJasiek
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Re: Ohashi Hirofumi's new opening
Opening ideas are spread by tournaments, servers, talk (e.g., at go congresses), club meetings, literature etc. IMO, servers are the most relevant. For years, professionals (not only Japanese...) have been seen playing and watching there.
It would not be the first amateur opening adopted by professionals. The Chinese opening is said to have originated from amateurs.
It would not be the first amateur opening adopted by professionals. The Chinese opening is said to have originated from amateurs.
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RobertJasiek
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Re: Ohashi Hirofumi's new opening
Checking GoGoD, there are these roughly similar occurrences:
- Sanno Hirotaka 1961, 8-10
- 11 games, Gan Siyang first 2007-07-04, 8-12 + 8-4
- Kikuchi Yasuro 1963, 5-10
Not included: tengen-like style fuseki / classic fuseki after center move / New Fuseki style like in the 1930s / my games.
Apparently, the Ohashi Hirofumi center games are not in my GoGoD edition yet (it ends after November 2011).
Among the 13 included games above, early extensions still tend to be parallel to the grid lines and boxes are comparatively small. This reminds me of my early attempts with "free style" openings. Parallel extensions are cut easily. Small boxes can become overconcentrated more easily than big boxes; so small boxes alone cannot be used for surrounding big moyos.
- Sanno Hirotaka 1961, 8-10
- 11 games, Gan Siyang first 2007-07-04, 8-12 + 8-4
- Kikuchi Yasuro 1963, 5-10
Not included: tengen-like style fuseki / classic fuseki after center move / New Fuseki style like in the 1930s / my games.
Apparently, the Ohashi Hirofumi center games are not in my GoGoD edition yet (it ends after November 2011).
Among the 13 included games above, early extensions still tend to be parallel to the grid lines and boxes are comparatively small. This reminds me of my early attempts with "free style" openings. Parallel extensions are cut easily. Small boxes can become overconcentrated more easily than big boxes; so small boxes alone cannot be used for surrounding big moyos.
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oren
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Re: Ohashi Hirofumi's new opening
Dave, one minor error I think. You have one game listed as Suzuki Tadashi when it should be Sasaki Tadashi?
I got to meet Sasaki once during a lecture here in Seattle, so I noticed when he played Ohashi in one of those crazy games on wbaduk.
I got to meet Sasaki once during a lecture here in Seattle, so I noticed when he played Ohashi in one of those crazy games on wbaduk.
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SmoothOper
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Re: Ohashi Hirofumi's new opening
It seems like he likes these slanted walls, and boxes.ez4u wrote:
as well as on the side
I have played around with such shapes trying to get eye shape in the center, but I have never had much luck with it, and was unable to find any literature on it, other than the brief description of the "flying star" shape in sensei's library.
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ez4u
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Re: Ohashi Hirofumi's new opening
Mea culpa! Thanks for spotting that.oren wrote:Dave, one minor error I think. You have one game listed as Suzuki Tadashi when it should be Sasaki Tadashi?
I got to meet Sasaki once during a lecture here in Seattle, so I noticed when he played Ohashi in one of those crazy games on wbaduk.
Edited.Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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macelee
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Re: Ohashi Hirofumi's new opening
Nice to see that Ohashi Hirofumi continue experimenting such openings, even against much stronger opponent.
http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/32131
Hope this lost won't discourage him.
http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/32131
Hope this lost won't discourage him.
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macelee
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Re: Ohashi Hirofumi's new opening
One more here:
http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/32145
These games were found from Ohashi's blog, apparently recorded by himself.
http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/32145
These games were found from Ohashi's blog, apparently recorded by himself.