Why is this joseki?

Dragon Pie · #1

Regarding this joseki result, I never completely understood why it's considered joseki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cB Small Avalanche Joseki Variation $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . $$ | . 0 8 1 6 . . . . $$ | . . 5 4 . . . . . $$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cB11 Small Avalanche Joseki Variation $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X 1 . . . . $$ | . O O X O 3 . . . $$ | . . X O 5 2 9 . . $$ | . . X O 6 7 . . . $$ | . . 4 X 8 . . . . $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Which looks like this when the stones are removed:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cB11 Small Avalanche Joseki Variation $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . . . . $$ | . O O X . X . . . $$ | . . X O X . X . . $$ | . . X O O X . . . $$ | . . O . O . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Now, both black and white are very thick and they've each played an equal number of stones, but to my eyes, white looks like they have more territory and those two black stones look like they have very little if any aji. To me, this result looks better for white than black, so I'm trying to understand why it's considered equal.

Uberdude · #2

I have some vague recollection of reading that the opinion of some modern professionals is also that they prefer white locally. Like all joseki resulting in thickness it depends heavily on the rest of the board and the potential of the thickness.

P.S. Black's 2 stones do still have significant aji, for example in yose in the corner, or pressing on the outside.

Because of the 2 stones this yose is sente. (White could also ignore 1 and then black plays 2 in sente for more corner points).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Corner aji $$ ------------------ $$ | . 5 3 . . . . . . $$ | 4 1 2 X X . . . . $$ | . O O X . X . . . $$ | . 6 X O X . X . . $$ | . . X O O X . . . $$ | . . O . O . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Or this press on the outside is much more sente because if ignored the atari at 3 is very painful for white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Outside aji $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . . . . $$ | . O O X . X . . . $$ | . . X O X . X . . $$ | . . X O O X . . . $$ | . . O . O 1 . . . $$ | . . . O 3 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Phoenix · #3

I agree with Uberdude here. And I would like to add that since ALL joseki involve some division of territory and influence, the results can only be judged in light of the board position and follow-up moves.

In the example above and on most board positions at the stage where this joseki would be played, Black would have to gear his strategy towards making use of his amazing thickness and gain from it. White's counter-strategy should then be to prevent Black from doing so. That's the thrust and parry of Go. :mrgreen:

It may seem like a lot of work (and a scary prosepect) to give up profit and have to get compensation through making use of your thickness in subsequent play, but once you learn the processes involved, you might find yourself largely preferring Black in some cases.

Making judicious use of Black's sente, which must be counted as part and parcel of the relative value of this sequence, Black can either quickly or slowly gain more than White has from the exchange.

Splatted · #4

Obviously I'm not strong enuough to answer the question, but I wonder if it's better to think of Joseki as situational, rather than equal. I don't just mean making a local loss in order to further your whole board plan, but rather that some Joseki might contain contain contradictory moves because they were made at different points in the game. For example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$cB Small Avalanche Joseki Variation $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 9 . . . . . $$ | . 0 8 1 6 . . . . $$ | . . 5 4 . . . . . $$ | . . 3 2 . . . . . $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

It's easy to imagine that :w2:

was played as a probe and after :b3:

white tenukied. Later black really wants to build up the top, and seeing this white comes back and plays :w4:

. The exchange of :b3:

for

becomes bad for black and he is forced to accept a local loss in order to profit (or stop white profiting) on the top.

It's a situation that must be pretty common, so it would be wierd if there wasn't a Joseki for it, but that doesn't mean it would ever be a good idea to play this Joseki right from start to finish. (Or maybe that exchange was good. I really don't know.)

shapenaji · #5

Dragon Pie wrote:

Regarding this joseki result, I never completely understood why it's considered joseki.

.....

Now, both black and white are very thick and they've each played an equal number of stones, but to my eyes, white looks like they have more territory and those two black stones look like they have very little if any aji. To me, this result looks better for white than black, so I'm trying to understand why it's considered equal.

Because white's second move in the corner implies that the right side is important. Because of that, black chooses this joseki because the strength facing that direction (+ Sente) will be far more useful than White's extra territory.

If the right side is not important, then black shouldn't play the small avalanche, he should just take his territory on the left side and let white have a wall facing a useless direction.

gowan · #6

This is OT regarding the specific joseki in the OP's question but it illustrates how joseki moves depend on the whole board context:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B corner diagram $$ --------------------- $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . 4 . . . O X 1 . . . | $$ . , . . . 2 O , X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This is a well-known joseki pattern.

Here is a whole-board, real game position where : B3 : in this joseki is a bad mistake:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O , . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B The B1 W2 exchange is bad for Black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . O X X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . O O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O , . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

B1 accomplishes little on the right side while W2 has a big effect on the development of Black's moyo.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Better for Black $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . O X X 5 . . | $$ | . . . X . 9 . . . , . . . O O 4 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O , . O . X . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Normally the sequence in the upper right corner is bad for Black because he is sealed into the corner and White gets outside strength but here Black's moves on the upper side develop his moyo and White's strength is mostly neutralized by the marked black stone on the right side.

Dragon Pie · #7

Thanks for the responses. I had considered the bit of endgame aji that uberdude had pointed out, but I hadn't considered the difference of the sente of the push. I figured if either player pushed, the opponent would likely respond for the sake of his shape unless he had a very specific reason why he wouldn't want to, but I guess that theoretical specific reason is the aji.

I guess that I'm also leery of this joseki in my own games because usually when white plays here, I'm thinking that the top side would be more important than the left side, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is better by a wide margin or that he couldn't simply often use the stones that he's trying to develop off of to mute the power of the thickness and develop along the left anyhow with the gained satisfaction of a slightly superior result in a corner in which he played second. I guess that black in this example would get sente and could play to spoil white's thickness.

Anyhow, thanks for the responses. I guess, if I don't like this result, I shouldn't play it right? Or maybe I should play it until I could come to appreciate it in a game. On an empty board, I do think that I prefer white, so in my mind, I was wondering how stronger players considered this joseki. I guess that it makes sense that it is typically only played when black decides that the top is more important than the left, so it wouldn't be played on an empty board except maybe if somebody likes thickness more than their opponent.

Uberdude · #8

The double ponnuki is pretty strong and aji-free, but that doesn't stop some people trying to kill it ;-)

The two stones' aji came in handy too.

Toru · #9

If the situation is right, black can also play a better move on the outside. Instead of pushing on the outside, which will be met of course by white's Hane, black can jump, causing himself to become cut-able. White is unlikely to cut right away because he will be made into a dumpling and consequently be put into danger with Sente moves. This option appears heuristically due to the shape and the two dead stones occupying white's liberties.

In short, I'm referring to black playing a one space jump on the outside instead of pushing with Nobi - A one space jump that white must lose important liberties in order to cut right away, which would result in fighting. Normally you can only push or Keima there!

:white:

Toru

Bill Spight · **#10**

Toru wrote:

If the situation is right, black can also play a better move on the outside. Instead of pushing on the outside, which will be met of course by white's Hane, black can jump, causing himself to become cut-able. White is unlikely to cut right away because he will be made into a dumpling and consequently be put into danger with Sente moves. This option appears heuristically due to the shape and the two dead stones occupying white's liberties.

In short, I'm referring to black playing a one space jump on the outside instead of pushing with Nobi - A one space jump that white must lose important liberties in order to cut right away, which would result in fighting. Normally you can only push or Keima there!

:white:

Toru

Which position are you talking about?

You can copy the diagram automatically by quoting the post.

gogameguru · **#11**

Toru's talking about this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Re: Uberdude's diagram $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X X . . . . $$ | . O O X . X . . . $$ | . . X O X . X . . $$ | . . X O O X . . . $$ | . . O . O . . . . $$ | . . . O . 1 . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

I agree, and I was going to make the same comment. There are many cases where it would be preferable to pushing from behind.

Dragon Pie · **#12**

Ooh. I hadn't thought of something like that jump, but now I can see the advantage of that and that I had significantly underestimated the aji of those stones.

Thank you Toru and gogameguru.

Why is this joseki?

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