#208 Amelia vs. Spine

Post Reply
Amelia
Lives with ko
Posts: 238
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:41 am
Rank: 10k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Soji
DGS: Soji
Online playing schedule: KGS usually Friday 20:00-23:00
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 109 times

Re: #208 Amelia vs. Spine

Post by Amelia »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
The natural move would be to protect my corner. But it feels a bit too passive. I can handle him taking the corner I think.
22 looks at two things: extending white's area of influence towards the center, and preparing the ground a bit for perhaps an invasion at the top.
I thought about invading right away, but that looked too risky because my top left corner still has weaknesses:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . X . 2 . X . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . a . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Top
skydyr
Oza
Posts: 2495
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:06 am
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: skydyr
Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Location: DC
Has thanked: 156 times
Been thanked: 436 times

Re: #208 Amelia vs. Spine

Post by skydyr »

Amelia wrote: The natural move would be to protect my corner. But it feels a bit too passive. I can handle him taking the corner I think.
22 looks at two things: extending white's area of influence towards the center, and preparing the ground a bit for perhaps an invasion at the top.
I thought about invading right away, but that looked too risky because my top left corner still has weaknesses:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . X . 2 . X . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . a . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
It's good to be thinking about when you can tenuki, but I don't like ignoring :b21: in this case. After black follows up by taking the corner, white's group is the weakest one on the board. Black can take control of the game by pushing it around a bit before white has a chance to prepare for or execute the planned invasions, possibly securing some of black's weak spots in the process. Black has several 3 space extensions on the third line which white could invade, both on top and on the bottom, so there is no way he can fix them all in one move. Thus, no rush.

EDIT:
Admittedly, black should have played :b21: one space lower to pressure white more, however.
Top
User avatar
Spine
Dies in gote
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:16 pm
Rank: 15k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Esquire
Kaya handle: Esquire
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: #208 Amelia vs. Spine

Post by Spine »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I really thought hard about my opponents last move. It would appear punishable. Maybe she is moving to fast. But I was at a loss at how to punish it. Instead I thought to widen my own space, while limiting her potential moyo.
**We're living in a world that's make believe, they made; we believed.**
Please note: My KGS handle is different from my L19 username.
Top
Dragon Pie
Lives with ko
Posts: 150
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:48 pm
Rank: KGS 1D
GD Posts: 0
KGS: DragonPie
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: #208 Amelia vs. Spine

Post by Dragon Pie »

I'm guessing that spine feels that a two space jump is too thin in this instance for white. That may or may not be true, but looking to "punish" a move like that is not the correct attitude to a move that may be slightly suboptimal. Now, if black was very strong in the area, maybe a straight-forward punishment would be possible, but usually when an opponent's play is thin, it leaves latent possibilities in a position. Maybe white can't play as severely when black invades, maybe black will get some useful forcing moves or maybe white will have to add another inefficient move later to deal with the deficiency of the original move.

Or, maybe black will lack the skill or white will have the skill to deal with the weakness and will gain an advantage from it. All of these things are possible, but often, when a player has little patience and tries too hard to punish a move that may or may not be weak, they end up helping make the opponent's move a good one by helping them protect their weakness and help them get rid of all that may worry them. Instead, you can consider thinking playing moves that aim at exploiting the weakness in one way or another.

Personally, spine is the one who appears a bit thin in my opinion on the top side. I like 22 because it built up white's moyo while offering support to an invasion on the top side. In my view, it looks like a good move.
Top
Amelia
Lives with ko
Posts: 238
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:41 am
Rank: 10k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Soji
DGS: Soji
Online playing schedule: KGS usually Friday 20:00-23:00
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 109 times

Re: #208 Amelia vs. Spine

Post by Amelia »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
My last move was double purpose: building a moyo and threatening an invasion of the top. Aside from that it left the lower left corner wide opened. Of these three things it seems he rated the potential white moyo as the most urgent, and went for a reducing move. I didn't expect this at all.
I can't ignore this move. Letting him mess up with my position would be too much to allow. The hane is a natural response, defending my position and reducing his stone's liberties. Maybe there is a better one but I can't come up with any so it'll do.
I think I can profit from defending my position. We'll see. I wonder if I can come out of this in sente?
Top
Dragon Pie
Lives with ko
Posts: 150
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:48 pm
Rank: KGS 1D
GD Posts: 0
KGS: DragonPie
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: #208 Amelia vs. Spine

Post by Dragon Pie »

Amelia wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
My last move was double purpose: building a moyo and threatening an invasion of the top. Aside from that it left the lower left corner wide opened. Of these three things it seems he rated the potential white moyo as the most urgent, and went for a reducing move. I didn't expect this at all.
I can't ignore this move. Letting him mess up with my position would be too much to allow. The hane is a natural response, defending my position and reducing his stone's liberties. Maybe there is a better one but I can't come up with any so it'll do.
I think I can profit from defending my position. We'll see. I wonder if I can come out of this in sente?
To Amelia:
Did you consider any other moves? Not saying your move isn't good, but I was curious which moves you considered before making your move.
Top
User avatar
Spine
Dies in gote
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:16 pm
Rank: 15k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Esquire
Kaya handle: Esquire
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: #208 Amelia vs. Spine

Post by Spine »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
That group on the upper right side looks quite big. I went to my first go club meeting this past Thursday and was told I played to passively. I wonder if I should have been a bit more aggressive in reducing here.
**We're living in a world that's make believe, they made; we believed.**
Please note: My KGS handle is different from my L19 username.
Top
Dragon Pie
Lives with ko
Posts: 150
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:48 pm
Rank: KGS 1D
GD Posts: 0
KGS: DragonPie
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: #208 Amelia vs. Spine

Post by Dragon Pie »

In my mind, I don't think that Spine's problem in this situation is that he's playing passively. I don't like the result of his attachment, but I think that the general idea of increasing the size of black's moyo playing along the border of the moyo's is a good one. I think that black's last move gives white a very good follow up.

As white, I'd be very happy to play here.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Also, black's prospects on the bottom aren't nearly as good as white's prospects on the right in my opinion.

It strengthens white and that takes away the option of playing a reducing move such as the shoulder hit.

I think that given the shape of white, I'll point out another possible option for growing black's influence while reducing white a bit.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . 0 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 5 4 6 . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Top
Uberdude
Judan
Posts: 6727
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:35 am
Rank: UK 4 dan
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Location: Cambridge, UK
Has thanked: 436 times
Been thanked: 3718 times

Re: #208 Amelia vs. Spine

Post by Uberdude »

s17 is so big and hurts my eyes to be unplayed for so long!
Top
Dragon Pie
Lives with ko
Posts: 150
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:48 pm
Rank: KGS 1D
GD Posts: 0
KGS: DragonPie
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: #208 Amelia vs. Spine

Post by Dragon Pie »

Uberdude wrote:
s17 is so big and hurts my eyes to be unplayed for so long!
I understand how this sort of play goes unplayed at their level. It is a giant play as far as pure points are concerned because whoever plays there gets a huge follow up in the endgame. But, at their level, they are learning to not play endgame plays too early. What I think can be missed by this is that white playing there erodes black's base as well and makes white's invasion very severe. But, I appreciate that they're thinking in terms of not playing endgame plays too early. It's at least a good attitude. Even if they could use some help understanding the value of a move like that with regards to the strength of their group and it's eyespace.

It's also consistent because white should only play the high approach when they have very good prospects in the center because the monkey jump erodes so much territory while black ends up with very solid corner territory. Of course, after black doesn't play it, white should feel overjoyed to get the best of both worlds, better prospects in the center and the right side along with part of the corner all while improving the prospects of a white invasion.
Top
Amelia
Lives with ko
Posts: 238
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:41 am
Rank: 10k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Soji
DGS: Soji
Online playing schedule: KGS usually Friday 20:00-23:00
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 109 times

Re: #208 Amelia vs. Spine

Post by Amelia »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
My first impulse was this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
But...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 2 O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
It seems that I keep getting a hane over my head and black is always a step ahead. He has cutting points, but so do I...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . 3 . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O O 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . 4 . 5 X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'm a bit at a loss at that point... Anyway this looks dangerous. So cross-cut is a problem. No cross-cut is also a problem because black builds influence and expands faster than me and I have the lower left corner to worry about. It's unsettled and may have to run. If I let black build too much power, it won't have anywhere to run to.

So I want to jump ahead.

This came to mind, but it looks quite troublesome:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 3 O 6 . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
All sorts of weaknesses and cutting points. Not sure who has the advantage but I don't want a fight here. I want a wall.

Now this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . 7 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O 6 . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I can deal with that.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
And with that.

So here we are.
Dragon Pie
Well, I did consider a few options but I dismissed them all quite fast.

Mainly the hane on the other side:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This seemed at first glance like a more severe response, cutting black off and making life more difficult for him. The problem is, I probably won't kill that stone (possibly there's a way... but no sure kill for my 15k eyes) and once I'm done not killing it, my wannabe moyo will be gone for good. Even if I can chase black around, I will be chasing him all the way through my potential area of influence/territory.

I also considered a couple of non-contact moves, but everything looked too slack or not efficient enough compared to the hane (R8, P8, P9).
Top
User avatar
Spine
Dies in gote
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:16 pm
Rank: 15k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Esquire
Kaya handle: Esquire
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: #208 Amelia vs. Spine

Post by Spine »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 7 . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
My thought process here: White's territory on the right there is looking big. But if white continues to solidify that area then maybe I can make some territory of my own just toward the center.
**We're living in a world that's make believe, they made; we believed.**
Please note: My KGS handle is different from my L19 username.
Top
Amelia
Lives with ko
Posts: 238
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:41 am
Rank: 10k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Soji
DGS: Soji
Online playing schedule: KGS usually Friday 20:00-23:00
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 109 times

Re: #208 Amelia vs. Spine

Post by Amelia »

Huh!
I didn't think he'd tenuki here. But it does make sense. I certainly need to rethink my prospects on the top.
Some thoughts (in no particular order):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Cap- B: 0 W: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . d . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . c . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . a . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . f . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . b . . . . O . . . X . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I need to think carefully about this.
Top
Dragon Pie
Lives with ko
Posts: 150
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:48 pm
Rank: KGS 1D
GD Posts: 0
KGS: DragonPie
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: #208 Amelia vs. Spine

Post by Dragon Pie »

R6 is suspiciously reminiscent of S17.
To Amelia:
Thanks for the answer. I was just curious. I remember when I was DDK and I actually put a lot of thought into my moves and tried to do brilliant fancy moves with complex thoughts behind them that happened to be wrong or overthought or sometimes it was simply that my judgement was wrong and one move was bigger than another.

I think that my personal path to SDK when I was DDK was to stop overthinking things and instead play more by instinct. My path to where I am now was to start considering many more moves and their implications. Now, I'm better off when I think more than play by instinct. But I think it's different for everybody.
Top
Amelia
Lives with ko
Posts: 238
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:41 am
Rank: 10k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Soji
DGS: Soji
Online playing schedule: KGS usually Friday 20:00-23:00
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 109 times

Re: #208 Amelia vs. Spine

Post by Amelia »

Dragon Pie wrote: To Amelia:
Thanks for the answer. I was just curious. I remember when I was DDK and I actually put a lot of thought into my moves and tried to do brilliant fancy moves with complex thoughts behind them that happened to be wrong or overthought or sometimes it was simply that my judgement was wrong and one move was bigger than another.

I think that my personal path to SDK when I was DDK was to stop overthinking things and instead play more by instinct. My path to where I am now was to start considering many more moves and their implications. Now, I'm better off when I think more than play by instinct. But I think it's different for everybody.
I wonder if that relates to the somewhat instinctive hane or the extra variations I put in my comment to the next move ^^.
Anyway, I can certainly relate to that. I don't know how many times I played the wrong move after overthinking only to find out that my first instinct was correct. Last week I managed to kill my own group *twice* by not playing the move I initially wanted to play. If think that's because instinct comes from games I watch, tsumegos, etc. But I don't have the thought processes to go along with these instincts yet. Also I get all confused when I try to read too far because in fact, I really can't. I resolved to make it a habit to play my first instinct move when I feel confused in a situation I can't read. That's harder to do than I thought it would!
I think it's sort of a student syndrom. If you didn't sweat over it then you feel it can't be the right answer, or something.
Top
Post Reply

Return to “1-on-1 Malkovich games”