Dragon Pie vs. emerus #209

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Dragon Pie
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Dragon Pie vs. emerus #209

Post by Dragon Pie »

This is an even game between emerus and Dragon Pie. We're both right around the border of kyu and dan. I hope to learn something from this game and I'm hoping that others can learn from the game as well. Enjoy the game, emerus.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I grab a handful of white stones.
:white: :white: :white: :white: :white: :white: :white:
emerus
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Re: Dragon Pie vs. emerus #209

Post by emerus »

Tails!

Err... I mean.... even?

EDIT:
White it is.

Have a very good game.
Dragon Pie
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#1

Post by Dragon Pie »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , B . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If my opponent plays in the upper left, I'll go ahead and enclose my shimari and treat the other two corners like miai. If he takes the bottom left, I might play at 3-3 with the idea of playing a diagonal fuseki with lots of solid cash and it might become a territory versus influence game. Or I might play 4-4 so that I'm not giving up too much influence and I can strike a nice balance.

It's an even game, so I have to remember that white gets some komi. At scoring, I'll let my opponent take any reasonable komi. If he decides on 5.5, 6.5 or 7.5, that'll be fine to me. If the game is that close, I don't think it matters so much who won, but more that we played about evenly.
Last edited by Dragon Pie on Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
emerus
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#2

Post by emerus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Nothing special, I'll open 2 4-4 and play reactively.
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Re: Dragon Pie vs. emerus #209

Post by Dragon Pie »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ok, now I let him decide. I've played orthodox a lot lately and so I'll probably do 3-4 if he goes parallel. I think white's better off playing on the bottom right anyhow because an extension on the right is a place where either of us want to play.

So, maybe I shouldn't give him the choice, but it's not that big a deal. I can build up elsewhere.
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#4

Post by emerus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If you could put the move number in the post title, I think that makes things look a bit better. :)

Interesting that he offered me a cross fuseki, small scale go fits my style better than moyos and frameworks do. Also, I rarely see black take the diagonal opening in pro play, I feel like that's because komi is too large when black doesn't have a speedy opening.
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#5

Post by Dragon Pie »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Sounds like a plan. Or I could just start spitting out coordinates, Magicwand style.
Well, now we're all split up. Theoretically this should be better for white as black's supposed to be more likely to make up komi if he gets a moyo built, but that doesn't mean that's the only way black can play. I ended up going with the solid cash corner play after all. I don't think it's exactly optimal, but I sometimes switch between going for solid points and going for influence. It's important to be able to play both ways. If I'm playing to simply win, I try to play very balanced and flexible, but when I'm playing to learn, I try different things out. It's generally useful to be able to invade and deal with influence, so sometimes I let my opponent build a decent moyo as I take some territory and try to improve my judgement to figure out how to reduce that moyo.

In the end, the goal is to have more points than my opponent. Nonetheless, I will most likely have to be the one to invade inside his moyo with good timing or to reduce it to something manageable. Either way, I challenge myself in this way by playing so territorially early.
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#6

Post by emerus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . d . , X . . |
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$$ | . . . c . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It's been a while since my 3-3 addiction but I remember how I always was satisfied when black shoulder hit me thinking "pros never do this so early, it can't be good". Recently though, my teacher played this move on move 3 in a 2 stone game and he thought it was the most natural thing in the world. I'm a bit more familar with the 'a' and 'b' variations but don't like this kind of picture as a matter of taste:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W The marked invasion leaves white with little profit.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . T . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . 6 . . 2 . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The extension one space shorter does not have the invasion point but I am still not comfortable approaching the lower left formation.

I considered the shoulder hit at 'd' to force him low in every location but it's much much simpler to attack the 3-3 stone right now.
Dragon Pie
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#7

Post by Dragon Pie »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Mostly symmetrical. But not completely symmetrical. The right and bottom right areas look most interesting to me, so I push here and slide under his stones. That way I'll be undercutting what he'd most like to develop.
emerus
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Dragon Pie vs Emerus #8

Post by emerus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Dragon Pie
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#9

Post by Dragon Pie »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This is one of the more common 3-3 josekis.

I think that there are a number of follow ups for white here, but the two space jump and the bend are the most common. One reason is that after playing a, black has a follow up at b that is fairly large.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . a . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


For some reason, I've noticed that a lot of my opponents around the low SDK level really like to play c to try to keep white low. The problem is that the cut here is simply too good for black, so he will not crawl but will instead cut. And this is the result and white is sad. both of his groups are separated and relatively weak.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 4 3 . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
emerus
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Dragon Pie vs. emerus #10

Post by emerus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . W . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm going to take the influence and try to keep my star point stones happy.
Dragon Pie
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#11

Post by Dragon Pie »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think that the odds are high that he won't want me to get a double wing. Also, I think he might want to prevent my approach on the lower right now. I considered approaching there directly, but the bottom isn't all that interesting right now as I've already undercut it and it's gote for him to close me off. The turn on the left is pretty big. I'd seriously consider that as white, but if I'd probably approach on the bottom right, and if he responded, take sente in order to approach the top right. That'd feel pretty nice to me.

My natural style tends to be fast and more often influence oriented. Which is actually interesting because my favorite is when I get the best of both worlds and get to build influence with some solid points in hand. That's my favorite.
emerus
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Dragon Pie vs. emerus #12

Post by emerus »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc I considered 'a' 'b' 'c' and 'd'
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . c . . . b . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . b . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . a O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . 3 . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

With :w1: , I develop my star point while preventing him a double, then I expect b1-5 with :b6: being difficult for me to answer. It feels too comfortable for black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . BT . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This :w1: aims to take an excellent result in the lower left corner and then make the top and right miai. When I think about it more, this is my one chance to take advantage of black not playing joseki (black 'a' instead of :bt:). Instead, it looks as if black spent his first 3 moves in one area and then invaded my corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . . 6 . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This gives white a very good result locally, with time to get another big point in the opening.
Uberdude
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Re: Dragon Pie vs. emerus #209

Post by Uberdude »

I prefer white now, that turn was too big as it works with white in top left. If black was on the left side it would be ok to allow white the turn.
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