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 Post subject: DGS game - joseki follow-up?
Post #1 Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:54 pm 
Dies in gote

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Hi everyone,
this is a DGS game I played some time ago. I think because of a few mistakes in the opening, I ended up in a difficult situation with way too little territory. In the end, I think I was behind by 30 points or something, for some reason my opponent quit playing but he would have surely won. I hope he didnt think I was being rude, I just wanted to continue playing because he had two rather weak groups and I thought I could catch up a little.

I think my slack or outright bad moves in the opening were 22, 30, 44 and 64, allthough I have no idea about 22. What is the best follow-up to that joseki? Any comment or advice is highly appreciated, especially comments on the opening moves, because in the later game I just tried to survive...thank you in advance!



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 Post subject: Re: DGS game - joseki follow-up?
Post #2 Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:10 pm 
Lives with ko

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9: Pretty.
10: You should note that his moves to this point are inviting a fight
33: Ouch. Nothing more for me to say, that this stone didn't already tell you.
38: Bad habit. Pushing from behind. If you feel you need another move there, play one that doesn't strengthen that stone and maybe you'll get to cut white later. Sometimes you can push from behind if you've basically conceded territory to your opponent and you want to push two or three times in an area where you stand to gain more from the pushes even including his hane or double hane. Or if it's pushing his stones flat or connecting you up to another stone.
41: Ouch. He's getting this in sente, too. Now you're playing O11. What if you played O11 in the first place? He'd probably get P11 in sente as that's the nature of the table shape, but afterwards, black would still have a real weakness in his cutting point. Instead, he's built up nice thickness. White's going to have to scrounge for life now. He'll get only a tiny bit of territory, but black can only be happy to build up all the more thickness in sente.
43: Truthfully, I think this is a mistake for black to give you the option to jump out.
44: Even still, white isn't comfortable if he had jumped out either, but getting sealed in is painful. And black is committing the sin of cutting living groups. Both of black's groups are strong, so white doesn't stand to gain much by cutting them.
55: I bet you're glad that black didn't peep here first.

Anyhow, you want to avoid having to solve life and death problems early in the game. Maybe when you're invading your opponents moyo at precisely the opportune time, or when it's a problem to kill, then you can solve some life and death problems, but not this early in the game. It usually means that your opponent is gaining too much and that you're going to be fighting from behind.

63: This is the type of problem that you benefit from if you don't ask someone else, but instead lay it out on the board. Can you see way to kill? Do you see two eyes? I don't think it's beyond your level. If it isn't alive, which yose move is most profitable to make it alive?

68: It looks fine to me. It's just painful to be double approached like this.

74: C17 is huge. If black plays there now, white has very not even close to settled feeling and it's worth some major points. White wouldn't be strong enough to seriously pressure black's iron pillar. Also, if white gets there first, he can look forward to pressuring one of the two black groups as black can only extend from one at a time.

75: This move is bad for black. After white blocks, his stone is severely weakened. If you felt you had time to play here, you should feel you have time to respond to this and strengthen yourself up against his weak stone. But you're correct that your white stones in the top right are very weak and you should probably take care of them even over getting a nice move in like the block here.

76: Try to avoid pushing from behind. Particularly when your opponent's group isn't strong. Maybe a diagonal play? Don't forget about C17, but I understand the desire to not get sealed in. Don't want any more life and death problems.

87: I wouldn't have played away just yet. White still isn't close to live. C17 is still huge, but it's hard for black to play a move bad enough to cost him the game.

Because you were being attacked the whole game after you gave him a huge lead, you kept having to defend in gote and your groups were still not settled. Will they die? Possibly. Does it matter? No. White has virtually no territory.

Because you were desperate for most of the game, you might not have played how you usually do. Anyhow, some things to take away is that it's important to not unnecessarily strengthen your opponent, you learned a good tesuji in a shape that you played and you learned the value of not being sealed in. And hopefully you learned the value of plays that affect both weak group's eye space.


Last edited by Dragon Pie on Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: DGS game - joseki follow-up?
Post #3 Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:05 am 
Oza

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One thing I found odd was that moves 2, 4, 6, and 8 were all 3-4 points, which are pretty territorial. When black plays his first move on tengen, he needs to prove that that stone will not be a waste, and the way to do that is to use it in fighting. By playing so territorially early on, I feel that white is ceding influence to black and letting him dictate the course of the game. To make :b1: look bad, I think white should play solid moves and joseki that prevent complicated fighting, and make sure to choose a balance of joseki to build influence to counter black's.

EDIT: One other point is that with all of white's stones and black's stones facing the same rotational direction, the game is being split into one with lots of small fighting groups where black's tengen stone is ready to shine.

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 Post subject: Re: DGS game - joseki follow-up?
Post #4 Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:23 am 
Judan

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Funny opening :D . Just focusing on the right side, with the approached stone on the top side, a pincer is, according to traditional theory, ill-advised as black can press you down low at a. I would thus be tempted to play Shusaku's kosumi at a (it's rotationally symmetric) to get into a high position (which helps negate tengen). This then makes miai of either pressing the top stone at b (or playing a pincer on it, but that has the problem of the press at top left) or a good pincer that can't be flattened on the right side. Probably black should answer the kosumi with an extension on the right side (which you can ignore), or press on the lower right corner (answer it) and then he extends on the right and you go do something on the top side.

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 Post subject: Re: DGS game - joseki follow-up?
Post #5 Posted: Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:43 am 
Dies in gote

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@ Dragon Pie:
thank you for your extensive commentary! I guess I will gain from replaying this game. The "pushing from behind" was played kind of automatically by me - I guess it is a bad habit indeed. I will try to get rid of it.
You are right about avoiding l&d Problems in a game too early, too. And is true that I was deperate for most of the game...

@ Skydyr:
I guess when playing my first moves all in the same rotational direction, I think there was some kind of obstinate thinking involved...you know what I mean? Stubbornly playing the same pattern again four times. Sometimes you get this in handicap games, where one player always chooses the same pattern everywhere.
Anyhow, my opponent handled the game much better. But maybe the good thing (for me) is that you gain more from lost games than from won games.

@ Ubderdude:
Thank you for you hint on the opening! I just checked the book "Fundamental principles of Go" by Yang Yilun and there he explains the same idea about the ill-advised pincer when you can be pressed down. I guess I didnt consider shusaku's kosumi too much because I play it too rarely in my games...I will try it out next time!

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