Where should a beginner look for moves?

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:15 am

Hi Peter, may I ask why you are asking this question?

I'm not being facetious. Right after I read your question,
I had a "first instinct" answer. Then I thought about it some more,
and read others' replies. And I thought about how to present it.
And then I realized, maybe it depends on the why.
(Bed time for me. I'll literally sleep on it some more,
then see if you have a 'why' next time; then think about it some more.

)

PeterPeter · Post by **PeterPeter** » Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:19 am

I am spending too much time on my moves, crawling over each area of the board in turn, saying to myself

Would that be a good place to play? No.
Would that be a good place to play? No.
Would that be a good place to play? Maybe.
Would that be a good place to play? No.
Would that be a good place to play? Probably.
Would that be a good place to play? No.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:22 am

Peter, thanks -- would it be fair to say, maybe often (60%+?) or
even most of the time (80%+?), you have no idea where to play in
the mid-game, and sometimes even in the opening ?
(If "no idea" sounds too extreme, we can tone it down to "unsure"
or "frustrated at being not 100% sure" of the next move.)

(Thanks for the honest reply. I have more info to sleep on. Night!

)

PeterPeter · Post by **PeterPeter** » Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:29 am

I think I am OK with the opening, for my level at least. There are some good guidelines I can apply: corners-sides-centre, biggest empty space, prefer line 3 and line 4, make boxes, etc.

The middle game is where I get lost. It is so much more complicated. Stones everywhere. I could easily come up with 20 'OK' moves in a position, not rank them very well, and still miss an obvious one.

amnal · Post by **amnal** » Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:02 am

PeterPeter wrote: The middle game is where I get lost. It is so much more complicated. Stones everywhere. I could easily come up with 20 'OK' moves in a position, not rank them very well, and still miss an obvious one.

Pick one -> play it -> observe result -> gain experience -> use experience to inform choice next time.

There really is a lot to be said for playing a lot of games. Experiencing many possibilties (and observing many opponent possibilities which will certainly not always match your expectations) is extremely important in developing a foundation for middle game intuition.

One thing that I think might help you is to just play faster if you really are spending a lot of time throughout the middlegame. If there are several apparently reasonable options, just pick a move and go for it. I don't know if you've taught many other players, but one thing that comes up a lot is beginners will think very hard for a while then play a terrible move like self atari. That's just because their thinking doesn't have reasonable bounds, hence the standard advice to lose 100 games as quickly as possible to see lots of shape and get some feeling for it. This becomes less important as you get stronger, but I think it's still very important for guiding middlegame intuition - above and beyond looking for an algorithmic method to pick the move. Like the beginner playing self atari, algorithms can only take you so far, experience guides your expectations and strongly helps with judging moves.

Edit: The other standard advice of asking about it in reviews also applies. If you come across a perplexing position, get it reviewed after the game and ask how would have been a better way to pick the move.

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:17 am

PeterPeter wrote:I think I am OK with the opening, for my level at least. There are some good guidelines I can apply: corners-sides-centre, biggest empty space, prefer line 3 and line 4, make boxes, etc.

The middle game is where I get lost. It is so much more complicated. Stones everywhere. I could easily come up with 20 'OK' moves in a position, not rank them very well, and still miss an obvious one.

They say that if you always have an idea where to play (even if it's wrong) you are at least shodan

PeterPeter · Post by **PeterPeter** » Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:25 am

EdLee wrote:Peter, thanks -- would it be fair to say, maybe often (60%+?) or
even most of the time (80%+?), you have no idea where to play in
the mid-game, and sometimes even in the opening ?
(If "no idea" sounds too extreme, we can tone it down to "unsure"
or "frustrated at being not 100% sure" of the next move.)

I think the best description is that I can see a large number of moves that look plausible, but have difficulty in efficiently pruning them down to a likely handful that deserve proper consideration.

skydyr wrote:They say that if you always have an idea where to play (even if it's wrong) you are at least shodan

Well, that's very flattering, but I think I have too many ideas rather than too few.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Apr 13, 2013 8:08 am

PeterPeter wrote:
EdLee wrote:Peter, thanks -- would it be fair to say, maybe often (60%+?) or
even most of the time (80%+?), you have no idea where to play in
the mid-game, and sometimes even in the opening ?
(If "no idea" sounds too extreme, we can tone it down to "unsure"
or "frustrated at being not 100% sure" of the next move.)
I think the best description is that I can see a large number of moves that look plausible, but have difficulty in efficiently pruning them down to a likely handful that deserve proper consideration.

skydyr wrote:They say that if you always have an idea where to play (even if it's wrong) you are at least shodan
Well, that's very flattering, but I think I have too many ideas rather than too few.

You probably have the right number of ideas for where you are.

What tends to happen is that after a while people go to the other extreme and do not consider enough moves. This is one reason that learning joseki early on is not such a good idea. At your stage, learning to prune bad moves is probably better than learning to make good moves.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Apr 13, 2013 8:47 am

PeterPeter wrote:I am spending too much time on my moves, crawling over each area of the board in turn, saying to myself

Would that be a good place to play? No.
Would that be a good place to play? No.
Would that be a good place to play? Maybe.
Would that be a good place to play? No.
Would that be a good place to play? Probably.
Would that be a good place to play? No.

There is a saying the the board has no memory. That is, except for kos and superkos, it does not matter what has happened before, the situation is what it is. It does not matter what plans or hopes that you had, you have to deal with what is.

Well, the board may not have a memory, but you do.

Even in the middle game, the board is starting to gel. You can assess parts of the board and possible moves, and the next move will affect only some of those assessments.

One thing that I learned to do early on was, when I would tenuki, assess the area where I made my last move and consider possible plays around there when play returned to that area. That is one reason that I can play the endgame quickly. I have already thought about it.

In chess, E. A. Znosko-Borovsky recommended taking time at some point to do a thorough analysis of the board, in preparation for making a plan. Such a thorough analysis takes time, and a detailed analysis of a go board may be beyond your abilities right now, but it doesn't hurt to pause a few times during the game for analysis and planning. Honinbo Jowa recommended assessing the board at around moves 30, 50, and 100.

PeterPeter · Post by **PeterPeter** » Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:35 am

Priorities are constantly shifting, ladder breakers get played... It is a lot to keep track of. I have been caught out a few times after abandoning a group that was fairly safe as it stood, but ended up losing it when a move which I did not mentally connect to the health of the group was played sometime later.

PeterPeter · Post by **PeterPeter** » Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:52 am

Bill Spight wrote:This is not a guess the next play problem. It is to prompt discussion. What are some good moves in this position?

These are potentially so instructive, each one could be a separate thread in the Study Group sub-forum.

If only there was a way in the diagram system for the provider of the position to later assign each empty point on the board a score from 1 to 10.

Or how about circles for candidate moves, crosses for wasted moves, and left blank for the 80% of moves inbetween?

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:38 am

That first position Bill posted is not a beginner problem (I didn't look at the rest). The first thing to do when presented with a position is to go round the board identifying what's connected to what to form groups and then assessing the status of them. Then you can do things like counting. But with that position there are lots of groups whose status is unclear so the board is very complicated. I would recommend beginners not to create so many interacting weak groups so the game is simpler and easier to formulate a plan. (And yes your opponent may have other ideas but if you settle your groups quickly you can stop the game getting out of hand).

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:49 am

PeterPeter wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
$$B Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . O X O O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O O O . O . . X , X X . |
$$ | . X O O X X O . . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X X O . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . X X . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O X . X . X O . X O O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . X O O O X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , . O O |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . O X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . O O O . O . . X , X X . | $$ | . X O O X X O . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . X X O . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X X . X X . O X O O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O X . X . X O . X O O . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O O O X O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , . O O | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This is not a guess the next play problem. It is to prompt discussion. What are some good moves in this position?
I'll just have a go at the first one for now, to check I am on the right lines. How many is reasonable? Should I label each move and give reasons?

There are so many possibilities...

The main priorities seem to be:
The big unclaimed area at the bottom;
Protecting the weak black group in the lower right (finding an escape route); and
Attacking the 2 white groups in the upper right (R10 and R14), by separating them.

$$Bc Black to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X X . . C . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O . . O X O O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | X . X X O O . O O O . O . . X , X X . |
$$ | . X O O X X O . . . O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O X . O X . C . . . . . . . C . . |
$$ | . . O . . X X O . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . O X X . X X . O X O O . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O O X . X . X O C X O O C . |
$$ | . . X . . . B O O O X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . X X . C . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . C . X X C . X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , . O O |
$$ | . . . O . C . . C . . . . . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X X . . C . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . O X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . O O O . O . . X , X X . | $$ | . X O O X X O . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . O X . C . . . . . . . C . . | $$ | . . O . . X X O . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X X . X X . O X O O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O X . X . X O C X O O C . | $$ | . . X . . . B O O O X O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . X X . C . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . C . X X C . X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , . O O | $$ | . . . O . C . . C . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White was Hayashi Gembi, Black was Honinbo Jowa.

It is important to note that the White group on the left is not completely alive yet. It has only about a half eye on the side and could be in trouble if the

stone escapes. The bottom side is a big place, but there are more exciting places to play now.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . O X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . O O O . O . . X , X X . | $$ | . X O O X X O . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . W X . S . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . X X W . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X X . X X . O X O O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O X . X . X O . X O O . . | $$ | . . X . . . B O O O X O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X S . X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , . O O | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I have marked with squares the two plays that look bad to me. Both are purely defensive. The play in the center secures life for the Black group, but it looks alive, anyway. There is an obvious eye for the

stone on the left, and if the other

stone runs, there is plenty of play. Besides, neither the White group on the left nor the three White stones in the center are yet secure.

As for the play on the right, how does it improve the eye potential for Black? It is a purely defensive play that does not secure life.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X X . 3 1 2 X 4 5 . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . O X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . O O O . O . . X , X X . | $$ | . X O O X X O . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . O X . . . . . . . . . S . . | $$ | . . O . . X X O . . . . . . X . a . . | $$ | . . . O . O X X . X X . O X O O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O X . X . X O . X O O . . | $$ | . . X . . . B O O O X O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . X X . S . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . S . X X . . X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , . O O | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

is a nice idea, to attack the White group. However, as the variation shows, White gets an eye on the top side, anyway.

The one space jump on the left threatens to save the

stone and maybe kill the White group. The jump on the right looks nice, but it is mostly a running play which does not threaten the White center stones very strongly.

The attachment against the two White stones in the top right is a nice idea, but White can easily give up the two stones now. Besides, "a" looks like a better point for attack. In general, attachments are not so good for attack. The attachment stone may be vulnerable, while a slightly more distant move usually offers fewer options for the opponent.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . O X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . O O O . O . . X , X X . | $$ | . X O O X X O . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . O X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . X X O . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X X . X X . O X O O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O X . X . X O . X O O C . | $$ | . . X . . . B O O O X O O . . . . S . | $$ | . . . O . . S . . . O . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . X X . C . . . . . . S O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . C . X X . . X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , . O O | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now the squares are three plays that I would think about. They are close to moves that you considered.

You can compare the plays and see what you think.

Here is the game itself.

Yes, as a problem it is difficult. But, as I said, I was not presenting it as a problem, but as something to discuss. I am pleased with PeterPeter's ideas. A couple of them I think are mistakes, but he identified good regions to play in. That is the most important thing. Next is to find the right play in the right area.

daal · Post by **daal** » Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:05 am

My thoughts on some of the board positions presented by Bill..

1. Since the marked groups are all not yet alive, I would like to make black alive while at the same time threatening one of the weak white groups.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X X . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X . X O . . O X O O X X . . . . . . | $$ | X . X X O O . O Q O . O . . X , X X . | $$ | . X O O X X O . . . O . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . O . . X X . . a . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . Q X . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . X Y O . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X X . X X . O X O O . . . | $$ | . . X O . O O X . X . X O . X O O . . | $$ | . . X . . . X O O O X O O . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , . O O | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

2. First of all, that moyo looks huge. I count that black has about 60 points, so that moyo will need to be reduced. Next, my eye goes to the two triangled groups. Neither are all the way alive, but I think they could both manage if pressured. Nonetheless, a move at "a" would also allow black to pressure the two circled stones, which might help black get into that huge white moyo.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X X . X X X X X X . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O X X O O X O O . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O . X O . O X O . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O O O O . O . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X O X . X . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X Y X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . W , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . W . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . a . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O Q O O O X O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X O X . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . X X . O X X X X . X O O . , O O . | $$ | . . X . X O O . . . . X . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . X O . . . X O . . X O X . X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

3. Is the circled group alive? I can't really imagine letting it die if it isn't, so figuring that out seems to be a priority... Other than that, the two triangled groups are not alive, so it would be nice to help one while hurting the other. I'm looking at something around "a", which also serves to pressure the corner and speaks to the squared stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . . , a . . . . , . # O . O , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . Q X . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X . . Y X X . O X X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X . X O X O . X O O O . . . | $$ | . O . O X O O O O O O . . X O . O . . | $$ | . O . O X O X . X X X . . X O O X . . | $$ | . X X X O O O . X O . . X . X O X . . | $$ | . . . B O . X X . O . . . X . X O O . | $$ | X O . X O . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

4. "a" doesn't work, so I want to play "b" to help the marked group - hopefully by killing the white group.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . O . X . O . . . . O O O X . | $$ | . . . O . O . . X O . . . O . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . X X . . . . X O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . O . X O . X a . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . X O O O X O O O . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . O X O O X X . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . X X O Y X X . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . X . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . X O . Q . . | $$ | . . . X O . O . . . . . . O O . . O . | $$ | . . . . O . . . X X . . b X . X . X . | $$ | . . X , . . X . X O . O . O X , . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . O X O . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . O . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

5. For black to keep an attack alive against the white groups, his marked group needs some more liberties. I'd start there.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O X . . . O X O . . . . . . . | $$ | . O X O O X . X X X X X X . X . . . . | $$ | . . X X X O . . . O X O . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X . O O O X X O O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . O . . X . O X . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . . . O . Q . . . . . X . . | $$ | X . X O . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O . . a X X Y X O . X . , O . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O O X O Q . O O . . . . | $$ | . X . . . . . X O O X O . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

6. Is the marked white group alive? Can it be killed? I'd try. (if it is alive, black has about 60 pts, and white about 20 plus the moyo - can it be reduced to less than 40? Or perhaps a move around "b" is enough for b?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . . . O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . O . . . O X X X . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . X . X O X O O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . O . . . X X Q . . a . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . . O O O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . O X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X X . X . . . . . . O . . . X O . | $$ | . . X O . . X X X X . . . . X X O O . | $$ | . . X O O . O X O O X X O . X O . O . | $$ | . . . X . O . O . O O X . . X O O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

7. The marked group is in trouble. The best chance seems to be to enclose white - threatening to make an eye on the side, and if white prevents it by playing at "b", to try to get a ko by following with black c, white d, black e.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . . | $$ | . . X O O O . . . . . . . O X X O . . | $$ | . O X X . . X . . , . . . . . Y O . . | $$ | . O X X O O O . . . . . O O . X O b . | $$ | . O O O X X . . . . . . . X X . X . . | $$ | . X X X O X . . . . . O . . . . X a . | $$ | . X . O O X . . . . . O . X X . c O e | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . O X X O O d . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , X X O O X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . X X O . O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O . O . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . O X X . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . X . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X O X . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:05 pm

@ daal

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black to play $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . . . | $$ | . . . , a . . . . , . B O . O , X . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . Q X . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . X X . . Y X X . O X X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X . X O X O . X O O O . . . | $$ | . O . O X O O O O O O . . X O . O . . | $$ | . O . O X O X . X X X . . X O O X . . | $$ | . X X X O O O . X O . . X . X O X . . | $$ | . . . B O . X X . O . . . X . X O O . | $$ | X O . X O . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

There is a miscopy in this diagram in your post. The

stone is actually Black.

Life In 19x19

Where should a beginner look for moves?

Re: Where should a beginner look for moves?

Re: Where should a beginner look for moves?

Re: Where should a beginner look for moves?

Re: Where should a beginner look for moves?

Re:

Re: Where should a beginner look for moves?

Re: Where should a beginner look for moves?

Re: Where should a beginner look for moves?

Re: Where should a beginner look for moves?

Re: Where should a beginner look for moves?

Re: Where should a beginner look for moves?

Re: Where should a beginner look for moves?