Project Shodan, KGS nick - Vladimir

vpopovic · **#21**

Bantari wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

Ed Lee's advice is good. Get a pro teacher.

Do you guys mean a pro-level teacher or a teacher who teaches for money? And why should one be picked above the other at 12k level?

I almost think that, at least for now, a pro teacher would be a waste of good money. To be honest, I would not worry about a pro-level teacher until at least 1d level, if even then. Better to either find a ama-low-dan-level player who agrees to provide some instruction (for fee or not.) A 1d-ama friend can easily help you out to reach 2k or so without even knowing it, just by play and advice, and as fast or faster than a formal pro-level lessons. Just my opinion.

As for game reviews (here, on GTL, etc.), play malkovich, play a lot of stronger players, and when you find one willing to give pointers and analyze after the game - hold on to that guy like gold!

PS>
As for a 'study plan'... Just an idear, you understand.

STAGE 1.
I think at the 12k-10k level, and after longer absence from the game (and with many distractions like house-stuff), I think the best for now is to just play serious games for now, until you have firmer grip on things and reach maybe 5k or so... With 60 min per day its hard... but I would say - play a game, as slow as you can (45min total, in your case maybe) - then spend the remaining 15 min going through the moves, alone or if you can with the opponent. Or with a stronger friend. If you have time to read - do some l&d, tesuji, and maybe some openings... but do not agonize about it too much. Read why in bathrrom, on the bus, whenever... no need to agonze over it for now, just get exposed to ideas. I would say: 3-6 months for that.

Finding a nice club in your area with people you can meet and play and study with would be invaluable!

STAGE 2.
On top of that...
After you reach 5k or so, dig more seriously into some books - joseki, l&d, stuff like that... Do not worry too much about 'theory', I think, although if you find time it would be great to read up on that as well, especially opening theory.

STAGE 3.
On top of that...
Then do some endgame study and dig more seriously into 'theory'.... All the time playing serious games, of course, whenever you have time.

STAGE 4.
Enjoy your new-earned and hard-won KGS-1-dan status and bask in the glory that is Go.

As a general rule, I would also do as chess players do - keep the record of all your games (easy with mostly internet play) and go over old(er) games periodically, to see if you can spot any more comment-worthy moves then before. It can help if you actually do make comments right there within the SGF as you review games. You can put dates by the comments you make, and then when you re-review, put dates there too, so you can see how your approach and ideas change... It will help you clarify where you used to make thinking mistakes and make it easier to weed those out.

Thanks, mate. This is, in most points, very consistent with my thoughts on ways to improve.
Good advices, thank you again.

vpopovic · **#22**

salerno wrote:

Vladimir, everyone else gave you already good advise, but I just wanted to say something about the demotivational post here: don't even listen to it. Shodan is actually a perfectly reasonable goal, and in fact, it isn't really that strong. Besides, you're already 10k, so you're not starting from zero. Just put yourself to it, and see where it takes you. Good luck.

You're reading my thoughts. Thanks.

vpopovic · **#23**

So, today I spent a lot of time searching all over net for posts about improving my go and, with your help of today, I think my study plan will be finished tomorrow.
Of course, I'll post it here.
Also, today I played 3 serious games, one lost for 0,5, other two won, one by wrong ladder reading of my 9k opponent.

Enough of go for today.

Thanks, everybody.

EdLee · **#24**

Bantari wrote:

Do you guys mean a pro-level teacher or a teacher who teaches for money?

A good pro who is also a good teacher.

Bantari wrote:

I almost think that, at least for now, a pro teacher would be a waste of good money.

This is certainly a personal value judgement call.

These questions are a very popular theme in these discussions
and have been discussed ad nauseum. It's similar to finding a teacher
for the piano, for math, for carpentry, for tennis, ... YMMV.

logan · **#25**

Hi vpopovic,

Good luck with your goal!

Since you only have at most an hour a day to then I recommend using that time to play games and have them reviewed. As others have said, it would be best to find a dan level player (since you are trying to reach 1-dan) to play with and help review your games. Since you don't have time to read books, then the dan player can help to fill in the most essential information that would have gained from reading those books. This should help you to efficiently use your time. Also, as being a human being you'll likely become burned out if you play and review a game everyday, so I suggest putting aside a couple of days a week to study life & death problems from some good books. They'll provide you with a break from your games and also let you focus on the second best way to directly improve your game.

Again, best of luck and see you in the dans!

p2501 · **#26**

Don't overthink / overplan it. Your success will be based on your efforts. It's not rocket science and there is no shortcut.

jts · **#27**

It's probably worthwhile not to have a specific plan at first, but to try many different things. For example, many people who are lukewarm about tsumego are actually trying to do tsumego that are too hard for them, or presented in the wrong format. I dislike memorizing joseki, but it turned out that I enjoy memorizing the openings of pro games. For a lot of us learning about our own learning style is a meandering journey in its own right, but you might benefit by being a bit more disciplined about experimenting with different ways of learning.

The bottom line remains, though, that you will need to play a lot of games and/or do a lot of problems to reach shodan, so you need to think about how you will squeeze that in.

Also, try to space out your frustration evenly. If you are going from 10k to 1d in 1 year, that wil not be 2.5 stones per month; it will most likely be five stones in the first three months (to 5k), two in the next three months (to 3k) and then the three final stones over the course of the next six months. Maybe someone else can give a more scientific breakdown, but my point is; if you expect the first and last stone to require the same amount of effort, you will feel like you are hitting a wall midway through.

Bantari · **#28**

EdLee wrote:

Bantari wrote:

Do you guys mean a pro-level teacher or a teacher who teaches for money?

A good pro who is also a good teacher.

Yes, but the emphasis in your and Bill's posts (and other such posts) is on the word 'pro' and not on 'good teacher'. As a matter of fact - the words 'good teacher' are not even mentioned, as if it was unimportant as long as the guy is a 'pro'. I think such position might be more natural to dan players looking for instruction, but for DDK players I would strongly argue against it!

EdLee wrote:

Bantari wrote:

I almost think that, at least for now, a pro teacher would be a waste of good money.

This is certainly a personal value judgement call.

Sure, but... isn't that what was asked for?!?

But there is also a rationale behind it. Can a pro player really understand what kind of issues a 12k grapples with? Sure, a pro player will know the 'right' moves, but is that really what a 12k needs the most? I am not sure what the answer to these questions are, and there are more such questions. Personally, I think that the best teacher is the one who:
1. can understand you personally and what you are going through (might have to be closer to your level for that than a pro) and
2. can teach you what you need to know (which might or might not be the 'right' moves you are not equipped to understand yet)

All in all, I am arguing that a good low-dan-ama teacher will, for now, be of equal (or even more) benefit to a DDK player than a generic pro-level teacher. Not to mention - much cheaper! I would say - don't look at pro teachers until you are a dan player or at least strong SKD.

Of course, your mileage might vary... this is just my personal take on things.

PS>
If you are interested, I have written some thoughts on teachers here.

Bill Spight · **#29**

Bantari wrote:

Yes, but the emphasis in your and Bill's posts (and other such posts) is on the word 'pro' and not on 'good teacher'.

To be sure, being a pro and being a good teacher are not the same. However, for who vpopovic is and what he wants to do, I think that a pro teacher is appropriate. Besides, there are several who teach online who have good reputations as teachers. I was not recommending that vpopovic pick a pro at random. I do not think that he would.

Even though I think that I am a good teacher, I would not undertake the task. Why? Because my go skills are too uneven. A pro will not have my weaknesses. Also, I have no experience with players who advance as rapidly as vpopovic wants to. Pros do. Yes, I knew Janice Kim when she was coming along, but once she began her training, she was told not to play amateurs.

When I was a 2 kyu (maybe Japanese shodan these days, with rank inflation) after a little more than one year of play I met Kajiwara and Kitani Reiko at the Kitani Dojo. They asked me who my teacher was. (OC, they meant a pro.) When I replied that I had none, Kitani said that since I had advanced so rapidly on my own, with a teacher I would advance by leaps and bounds. I expect that she was right. Helping people with the capacity to do so to advance by leaps and bounds is something that pros know how to do. (Not all of them, OC.

)

Bill Spight · **#30**

Bantari wrote:

Can a pro player really understand what kind of issues a 12k grapples with? Sure, a pro player will know the 'right' moves, but is that really what a 12k needs the most?

A while back I took young Boidhre under my wing. Why? Because, unlike that of many beginners, his game made sense to me. To me that indicated both his potential and, more importantly, that I would be able to communicate with him.

Even so, I would not undertake to make him shodan, because of my weaknesses.

Bantari · **#31**

Bill Spight wrote:

Bantari wrote:

Yes, but the emphasis in your and Bill's posts (and other such posts) is on the word 'pro' and not on 'good teacher'.

To be sure, being a pro and being a good teacher are not the same.

I really don't want to beat a dead horse here, but...

A pro teacher CAN be a good teacher, and CAN be appropriate for a DDK player, sure. But emphasizing the condition that he is a PRO without any consideration that he is also GOOD and APPROPRIATE is harmful, imho. Now you qualify what you said, which is cool... but the initial statements looked like 'get A pro, does not matter which, as long as he is a pro'... what I am saying is that, at 12k level, the statement should read more like 'get a good teacher, no matter what, and if he happens to be a pro - that's ok too!'

Otherwise we really running into a level-worship here. And losing sight of what's really important. Or we care about supporting the pros more than supporting the OP.

So, from me to the OP:
Get a GOOD teacher, one that's right for YOU! And if it happens to be a pro, so much the better, hope you have the money to pay for the lessons.

PS>
Please understand - what I say here is not personally motivated, just a strong conviction. I would never charge nor pay for Go lessons. And I thank all those who helped me get to where I am without asking for anything in return. My hat off for you!

Now I need another glass of wine...

Kanin · **#32**

Hi Vladimir,

I reached 1d on KGS within a year without a teacher and with far from optimal study technique. It is definitely not impossible or even that difficult, if you use your time wisely. Some people posted great advice already, especially Polama had some good stuff. There is no day-to-day study plan out there that I'm aware of but there is a pretty good piece on how to study go here: http://www.gogameworld.com/2013/03/30/h ... go-series/

There you can read about how to study tsumego, how to study pro games etc.

I belive you can make 1d in less than a year since, as someone already mentioned, you are not starting at zero. Good luck!

EdLee · **#33**

EdLee wrote:

Yes, find a good pro teacher immediately.

Bantari wrote:

Yes, but the emphasis in your and Bill's posts (and other such posts) is on the word 'pro' and not on 'good teacher'.

No, Bantari. Either you misunderstood, or you are putting the emphasis into my mouth, or both.
You asked me to clarify what I meant by "a good pro teacher," so I replied, "A good pro who is also a good teacher."

"good pro teacher" -- equal emphasis on "good", "pro," and "teacher", as I already clarified to you.
Please don't put emphasis into my mouth or change the meaning of what I said.
"A good pro who is also a good teacher." -- this is very clear.

Bantari wrote:

As a matter of fact - the words 'good teacher' are not even mentioned...

It was mentioned, in "good pro teacher". If somebody asks me for advice, and I say "find a teacher",
clearly, I do not mean "find a bad teacher".
If you think "find a teacher" is ambiguous because it does not explicitly specify
"find an OK teacher" or "find a good teacher," then, OK, that's why I included "good".

EdLee · **#34**

Bantari wrote:

Otherwise we really running into a level-worship here. And losing sight of what's really important. Or we care about supporting the pros more than supporting the OP.

No, Bantari, once again, this is only your opinion.
I suggested him to find a good pro teacher not to support pros, but because
and to me, that is important. To you, it is not. That's where we disagree (among other things).

You have stated your opinion. I agree with parts of it. I also disagree with parts of it.
I also have stated my opinion.

If you want to discuss this further, please PM me, or, if you're going to 2013 US Go Congress,
we can chat there. But I'm not going to discuss this with you any further here in this thread.
Thank you.

Bantari · **#35**

EdLee wrote:

Bantari wrote:

Otherwise we really running into a level-worship here. And losing sight of what's really important. Or we care about supporting the pros more than supporting the OP.

No, Bantari, once again, this is only your opinion.
I suggested him to find a good pro teacher not to support pros, but because
and to me, that is important. To you, it is not. That's where we disagree (among other things).

You have stated your opinion. I agree with parts of it. I also disagree with parts of it.
I also have stated my opinion.

If you want to discuss this further, please PM me, or, if you're going to 2013 US Go Congress,
we can chat there. But I'm not going to discuss this with you any further here in this thread.
Thank you.

Lol.
Ok, fair.
Lets agree to disagree on this one, and move on.
I just realize - in the heat of the discussion we are actually highjacking a good thread. My apologies to the OP and you, Ed, and everybody involved. I get carried away sometimes, thanks for bringing me down to earth.

vpopovic · **#36**

logan wrote:

Hi vpopovic,

Good luck with your goal!

Since you only have at most an hour a day to then I recommend using that time to play games and have them reviewed. As others have said, it would be best to find a dan level player (since you are trying to reach 1-dan) to play with and help review your games. Since you don't have time to read books, then the dan player can help to fill in the most essential information that would have gained from reading those books. This should help you to efficiently use your time. Also, as being a human being you'll likely become burned out if you play and review a game everyday, so I suggest putting aside a couple of days a week to study life & death problems from some good books. They'll provide you with a break from your games and also let you focus on the second best way to directly improve your game.

Again, best of luck and see you in the dans!

Thank you for a view from a practical side.

vpopovic · **#37**

@p2501, @jts I decided to listen to you about not overplanning. For the first one, two or three months I'm gonna just play as much as I can and do tsumego the same way. I'll squeeze Opening Theory Made Easy, Tesuji and Attack and Defense in when I have the time.
After that initial period I'm gonna start with more studying from the books.

@Kanin O, man, those were the words I needed. Thank you very, very much.

@Bantari, @EdLee Guys, you inspired me to go today to a go club and try to find a teacher. I don't know if there are any here where I live, but in case there aren't, I'm gonna give serious thoughts to the idea of finding one online. Thank you for inspiring debate.

Two notes:
1. goproblems.com works fast and good on my native android browser, so I'm gonna exploit it every time I have couple of minutes.
2. Idea: I'm gonna record myself reading principles of Opening Theory Made Easy and some go proverbs understandable for me and gonna play it while I'm running, while in car etc. I hope it's gonna help me to remember principles and shapes/sequences related to them. I hope this is not a stupid idea

jts · **#38**

Just to be clear - when I said "don't overplan," I meant that choosing one plan might have the effect of preventing you from experimenting with other plans, and thus not realizing that some element of the plan you did choose was a bad fit for you, and never discovering that some other approach was better suited to your interests and inclinations.

I do think that you should plan, at least to the extent of writing down somewhere how many games you expect to have played by June, how many problems you expect to have done, how much money you think you'll have spent on books and lessons - that sort of thing. It's hard to pursue a project without a concrete record of what your expectations were at each stage in the project - if you write down some ideas now, a month into the project you can compare your June-outlook to your April-outlook, and adjust your plans for the next month accordingly.

Chew Terr · **#39**

My biggest piece of advice here is the same I would offer for any goal/diet/etc: keep to the spirit if not the letter. While you certainly need to be severe with yourself to make yourself work, if you are unable to perfectly keep your planned schedule, at least fit in what you can.

This may sound obvious, but I have been hearing lately about studies that say that when people miss a day on their diet, they are much more likely to go overboard or skip the whole week instead of just getting back to normal the next day. Similarly, if I was too busy in a week to get the go study that I had intended, it is much harder for me to start up the next week. Anyhow, my point is to take one day at a time and do everything you can to reach your intended effort for that day. If you can do that and put in the time, you will see results.

Also, the times when I was improving most were the times I had arranged motivation for myself. One of the best things about taking lessons, for me, was that it drove me to consistently play several serious games a week and self-review. Of course the lessons themselves were great, but if you can find something that helps you push yourself (be it that, a review journal, or a like-minded individual to compare notes with), it can really make it easier to put in the time.

vpopovic · **#40**

In this game I made a ton of mistakes, lost 2 huge semenais, after that managed to kill 3-3 invasion and to invade other corner. I brought the game back to relatively close and did what? Lost for time due to my slow 3g on phone. For this one, I'm really sorry.

Project Shodan, KGS nick - Vladimir

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