How did the opening go so badly wrong?

thirdfogie · #1

On 20 April, I played in the first tournament for some time at which I managed to record the games.

This is the first of the day, so I cannot even use the excuse that I was tired.

It felt like the game was hopeless by move 45, and it only got worse after that, so comments on the opening are particularly welcome.

Both players were 4 kyu and I was White.

Uberdude · #2

Heh, my first game of the tournament went rather better

.

6: It's not bad, but just FYI this knight's move is considered a bit of an old joseki that is not so popular these days as it is slack territorially. I would r5 attachment or play some pincer depending on mood.

22: Could c3. It's very big (points and base for both sides), and k4 means if he plays 3-3 then you can no longer play j3 comfortably. You could answer it at h3 or h4 which does put some pressure on his k4 stone, but also the white group is a bit cramped so it's difficult and fighting. 3-3 now is simple and easy and good. Maybe h4 is also possible to pressure his k4. In fact as black I would not have k4 but just 3-3 and allow white to make some territory on the lower side: it's nothing special as j3 can be reduced at k4 later, and if white answered c3 at h4 there is an invasion at k3 for later.

24: I might tenuki. c3 (not so much of a tenuki as it is related to the strength of k4) or c12.

30: f2 ok.

32: Ewwwwwwwwwwww! Tiny move. Black's previous move didn't defend at g4 so you could cut there, though I'm not sure it will be particularly profitable so maybe best to aim for it later (e.g. if you got m6 it would be a more powerful cut).

35: This is funny from black, 4th line would be natural. Note that the top left corner is still open, invading there is very big (30pts+) though could damage your top side a bit. In this kind of shape it would be common for black to exchange e17 for f18 to patch the corner a little.

36: Seems ok.

40: This is a game-deciding decision. This is a perfect time to count, did you? If you play a reduction like this he will trash your own moyo. If you hadn't exchanged l3 for g4 then reduction moves like this would aim at the g4 cut and actually have some attacking power, as it is it is just a limp dame move that feels like making a weak group, hurting your own moyo. My feeling without counting (I don't think the game is hopeless for white) is this is the losing move and you should simply have either answered at g11 or h12 to mutually build moyos, or else do something in either of the top corners as they are the biggest area other than the centre boundary.

Splatted · #3

I'm only 5k, but I felt like having a look anyway.

Move 22: I would be thinking about defense, not attack here. Your group on the left is obviously going to come under attack if you leave things as they are. If you don't want to get pushed low now is the time to do something about it. I think this and the following sequence is what caused your problems.
Move 26: Ensures the safety of your group, but isn't disrupting black's moyo more important here? I would jump out at F5.
Move 28: Why save that stone? Something on the left side would have really helped you deal with black's moyo here, and the cut doesn't seem like a good idea yet anyway.

After this I'm not sure what to do. :salute:

Phoenix · #4

This'll be my first time commenting on a game on L19. I may sound harsh, but it's just my style I guess... I happened to comment a bit on both sides. Also, I'm around your rank, so take the comments lightly. :mrgreen:

Attachment:

d02a7ea13d383b7a0bb801be4618928636f3f9f4.sgf [4.63 KiB]
Downloaded 586 times

Bill Spight · #5

Major focus: Do not let your opponent have an easy game.

If this is your customary style of opening, let it go. You are not trying to take the lead. You are not trying to obstruct your opponent, you are not trying to thwart his plans.

This style is particularly dangerous as White, because it allows Black to keep the initiative for a long time. Yes, the komi is large, but it is easy to fritter points away.

Do you give handicaps? I would suggest giving 2 or 3 stones. You do not have to make a lot of overplays, but you do have to be enterprising.

By :w18:

the left side is critical. The bottom side is not so large, because of the solid group in the bottom right corner. You do not mind if Black approaches it. Black's two stones in the top left corner, however, are vulnerable. That should make your mouth water. I showed a number of possibilities for that move, but for you I would strongly suggest the small knight's approach. Yes, it is open to a pincer, but it gives Black problems.

What happened in the game? You ended up protecting your strong group in the bottom right, while allowing the weak Black stones to make solid territory. What is wrong with this picture?

Uberdude and I agree about playing on the 3-3 at move 22. That aside, :w22:

is another play that says, You go your way, I'll go mine. The trouble is, Black gets to Scotland afore ye.

Uberdude and I disagree about :w40:

. I think that White is behind, but not so badly behind in terms of the score for a kyu level game, in general. The trouble is, Black's positions are solid. That makes it hard to catch up.

:w34:

looks like one of those plays on the frontier of frameworks, that are so big. The trouble is, it finally solidifies Black's two weak stones. White now has little play. Better to invade or reduce, as I indicate.

The your-way-my-way approach is not dynamic. You can lose the game without knowing why.

thirdfogie · #6

Thanks everyone for the comments.

Uberdude wrote:

Heh, my first game of the tournament went rather better

.

40: This is a game-deciding decision. This is a perfect time to count, did you? If you play a reduction like this he will trash your own moyo. If you hadn't exchanged l3 for g4 then reduction moves like this would aim at the g4 cut and actually have some attacking power, as it is it is just a limp dame move that feels like making a weak group, hurting your own moyo. My feeling without counting (I don't think the game is hopeless for white) is this is the losing move and you should simply have either answered at g11 or h12 to mutually build moyos, or else do something in either of the top corners as they are the biggest area other than the centre boundary.

Yes, congrats on winning the tournament. I didn't feel the need to count: at move 40, Black has two board-spanning groups whereas White has three. One of White's is very low and one is over-concentrated. I thought about h12, but not about g11, so that's a take-home lesson.

Bill Spight wrote:

Major focus: Do not let your opponent have an easy game.

If this is your customary style of opening, let it go. You are not trying to take the lead. You are not trying to obstruct your opponent, you are not trying to thwart his plans.

This style is particularly dangerous as White, because it allows Black to keep the initiative for a long time. Yes, the komi is large, but it is easy to fritter points away.

Do you give handicaps? I would suggest giving 2 or 3 stones. You do not have to make a lot of overplays, but you do have to be enterprising.

I don't always play this way, and all the games at my club are played with handicaps, one way or the other. I was lucky enough to have Michael Redmond 9p comment on two of my games when he visited the UK recently: in one of those games, I played the low 1-point pincer in reply to the 1-point high approach, and it led to a big fight that both players messed up. Redmond Sensei commented that weak players should not try to play complex joseki because one side or the other will always go wrong. I agreed with the premise, if not the conclusion, but decided to try following the advice anyway. Perhaps I interpreted it too literally. (A separate post on Michael Redmond's visit is in preparation.)

I narrowly beat this opponent the previous time we played, so "failing to respect the opponent" may also have been a factor. He told me afterwards that his strategy had been to play without leaving any weaknesses, so I unwittingly fell right into the trap. More flexible thinking is needed!

Uberdude · #7

I would recommend you give up playing the knight's move answer to the high approach for a while and see how things go (one easy to identify exception is if you already have a pincer stone in place which prevents his full extension, such as if he comes into the Chinese opening, more difficult to identify are the rare occurrences where getting a strong high stone is worth the territorial loss so err towards not playing it unless you are sure).

Just to illustrate the lack of territory in a not particularly rigourous way (I'm not looking at how much black got too):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c 6 stones earns 10 points $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . X . O . O . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . O S S S . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . S S O S O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . S S S S . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c 4 stones earn 14 points $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O S S | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O S S S | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . S S S S S | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . S S S S | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Aren't corners are great!

otenki · #8

@Phoenix:

In your review you say pincer low so it works well with your hoshi stone:

Quote:

Phoenix: Or this sort of pincer, hoping to make good use of White's hoshi at the top-right.

I don't understand how that low stone would work well with the 4-4 stones, especialy when it is that far away.

Can you elaborate or maybe show sequence ?

Thanks!
Otenki

ez4u · #9

Regarding this fuseki, Yi Ch'ang-ho kicked off a brief flurry of games in 1996 when he played it twice against Cho Hun-hyeon in successive weeks and won both games. He never played it again (per GoGoD) and interest quickly died. As always YMMV.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Yi Ch'ang-ho (White) - Cho Hun-hyeon, 35th Ch'oegowi Final 1996-02-16 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 8 . . . . . . . 5 . . 1 . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Yi Ch'ang-ho (White) - Cho Hun-hyeon, 14th KBS Cup 1996-02-22 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . 1 . . 4 . . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . 5 . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . 6 . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Yi Seong-chae (White) - Mok Chin-seok, 19th Kukgi 1996-02-26 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . 5 . . 1 . . 4 . . | $$ | . 8 . O . 7 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Yi Hyeong-ro (White) - Yi Se-tol, 2nd LG Cup 1997-04-15 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . 8 . . 9 . 4 . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O 0 . . , . . . . . X . 5 . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Phoenix · **#10**

otenki wrote:

@Phoenix:

In your review you say pincer low so it works well with your hoshi stone:

Quote:

Phoenix: Or this sort of pincer, hoping to make good use of White's hoshi at the top-right.

I don't understand how that low stone would work well with the 4-4 stones, especialy when it is that far away.

Can you elaborate or maybe show sequence ?

Thanks!
Otenki

I probably should have included this in the file. :mrgreen:

The idea with the low pincer is to develop on both sides, at the expense of the corner. Some of the variations get quite difficult, but in this case White simply wants to play on both the right and the bottom. Regarding joseki choices, this is what White should aim for.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc White's aim. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 9 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Or... $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X C X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . O . X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Then again... $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X . X . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , X O . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . X C X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In each case White's hoshi stone is working relatively well with his other stones, while Black's is blighted to some extent.

Of course, if White wants to keep things (relatively) simple, and if he feels brave, he can go for a more even result:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc I'm Batman! $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W W W . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a X O O . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White will be looking to exploit the weakness at a when Black tries to build a moyo. In the meantime, the marked stones work very well with his hoshi.

These are a few examples, but the idea is the same: the low one-space pincer tends to lead to White playing on both sides. I feel that since both sides have hoshi, this is an important approach (though there's nothing wrong with the attach-draw-back joseki in this situation). The results may not look great, but you can't have everything when playing on both sides. :mrgreen:

There are other good results in these lines for White. Black will of course try to steer towards different variations, and each will deal with the board as it comes.

I didn't want to clog the post with too many diagrams. Sorry if I didn't number the moves. ;-)

otenki · **#11**

Thanks Phoenix, I'll look into some of the variations deeper but I get the whole board thinking your were talking about when reviewing.

Cheers,
Otenki

Bill Spight · **#12**

thirdfogie wrote:

I was lucky enough to have Michael Redmond 9p comment on two of my games when he visited the UK recently: in one of those games, I played the low 1-point pincer in reply to the 1-point high approach, and it led to a big fight that both players messed up. Redmond Sensei commented that weak players should not try to play complex joseki because one side or the other will always go wrong.

Redmond's argument is esthetic. After all, when two pros play "one side or the other will always go wrong", if not in a joseki.

Quote:

A separate post on Michael Redmond's visit is in preparation.

Sounds great! I look forward to it.

How did the opening go so badly wrong?

Who is online