Komi pie: will it ever become widely used?

[snorri]

One possible upside is, no governing body or tournament director would need to announce what komi value will be used.

Well, they would have to spend more time explaining komi pie, so this would only become an advantage once everyone uses it and takes it for granted. Until then, it would be a pain in the rear for the TD. For rating systems, you'd have to record the komi used. Players are often tired and the end of games and maybe would forget what they agreed upon, leading to disputes, unless it was recorded at the beginning of the game. Extra procedures would have to be put in place to make it work in formal contexts like tournaments.

For casual games, you can do anything you want and this kind of haggling might be acceptable. Maybe it's useful in bangneki.

[ez4u]

One thing that just occurred to me is that komi pie changes go from a complete information game to an incomplete information game, because you don't have all the facts when you make your decision about the komi.

If we amateurs think we are playing a complete information game when we sit down at the Go board, well that's just a bit of over confidence on our part.

[skydyr]

One thing that just occurred to me is that komi pie changes go from a complete information game to an incomplete information game, because you don't have all the facts when you make your decision about the komi.

If we amateurs think we are playing a complete information game when we sit down at the Go board, well that's just a bit of over confidence on our part.

Just because we don't know what to make of the information doesn't mean it's not there.

[SmoothOper]

One possible upside is, no governing body or tournament director would need to announce what komi value will be used.

Players are often tired and the end of games and maybe would forget what they agreed upon, leading to disputes, unless it was recorded at the beginning of the game.

That could be a problem for Chinese counting since they don't count captures, but for Japanese, black puts the komi value as captures in whites dish.

I have often wondered if the counting methods between Japanese and Chinese lead to the difference in komi or if there is something cultural about the style of play.

[ez4u]

Anyway I was thinking about this and my fingers started to itch so I responded in my usual fashion...

Code: Select all

KGS User                                             Games    Wins    Win%
 
Kirby:
Playing White versus equal-ranked opponents             33      12     36%
Playing Black versus equal-ranked opponents             45      26     58%

twoeye:
Playing White versus equal-ranked opponents           1836    1080     59%
Playing Black versus equal-ranked opponents           2881    1766     61%

TheCaptain:
Playing White versus equal-ranked opponents           4738    2327     49%
Playing Black versus equal-ranked opponents           7582    3838     51%

What we see here is the results from even games as listed in the KGS Analytics *.csv file for three users. "Even games" here means where both sides have the same rank (self side rank2 = opponent rank2 for defined ranks, i.e. rank2 does not equal -99). The figures for the Cap' and twoeye are a couple of months old as I used files that were sitting around on the PC from an earlier topic.

We can see that Kirby has a clearly better result playing black (although the number of games is small). Meanwhile both twoeye and TheCaptain have more balanced results. From this I can see why Kirby would be interested in 'paying' for the right to play black more often, while the others would not.

Now this reminded me that even pros show this kind of difference. However, I am pretty sure that Kim thinks that he should work hard to improve his play with black rather than that the rules should be changed so that he gets to play white more often. Of course, I could be wrong about that. Maybe Kim is vigorously agitating for the introduction of komi pie in Korean professional baduk and we just haven't heard about it yet.

[hyperpape]

Players are often tired and the end of games and maybe would forget what they agreed upon, leading to disputes, unless it was recorded at the beginning of the game.

That could be a problem for Chinese counting since they don't count captures, but for Japanese, black puts the komi value as captures in whites dish.

I have often wondered if the counting methods between Japanese and Chinese lead to the difference in komi or if there is something cultural about the style of play.

Well, don't call it Japanese then, but whatever form of territory counting I've used in every single game I've played over the board has not incorporated this.

[oren]

That could be a problem for Chinese counting since they don't count captures, but for Japanese, black puts the komi value as captures in whites dish.

I have never seen this happen.

[ez4u]

That could be a problem for Chinese counting since they don't count captures, but for Japanese, black puts the komi value as captures in whites dish.

I have never seen this happen.

It is very common in Japanese clubs that use variable komi systems so you don't have to worry about forgetting what the current komi is. It is less common where the ordinary (6.5 for even games, 0.5 for handicap games) komi is used, for example at the Nihon Kiin playing rooms.

[oren]

It is less common where the ordinary (6.5 for even games, 0.5 for handicap games) komi is used, for example at the Nihon Kiin playing rooms.

Interesting, thanks. I've never heard of that before. I've only been to a club there a few times, and no one did that. We just ended up playing even.

[Kirby]

Oh wait... It just occurred to me... if I bump into Kirby in some club, the only way for me to avoid the annoying komi-pie procedure will be to engage in an even more annoying process of trying to convince Kirby that I do not wish to do komi-pie... he might want to run through all the arguments why komi-pie is so good... why I will have to keep repeating that "i don't like it regardless"... over and over... like this thread... nightmare! So maybe its less hassle to just do the darned komi-pie with Kirby.

Or... I know... when I see Kirby - I just run like the wind!!!

Don't worry, in real life I am actually quite well behaved and, perhaps, a bit on the shy side.

[Kirby]

...

Well, not trying to be mean or anything, but you behave a little like a dog with a bone. I sympathize - this is where I have to slap myself on the wrist for a lot too. But at some point you have to accept that you said what you needed to say, and now its up to the people to make up their minds. Insisting that you are right and arguing until either all get bored or offended is counter-productive.
...

Perhaps. To be honest, it is difficult for me to think this way. In written discussion, I feel that I am pretty open about my thought process. When there is a conflicting thought process, I like to challenge it to see why that thought process is not the same as my thought process. When I feel that my thought process is logical, despite reading a conflicting idea, I try to phrase things in a different way.

Regarding "what I need to say"... Is there anything I need to say at all? Sometimes, I "say" (write) things on the forum as a way of confirming my own thoughts. I would not say that this is necessary.

Nothing is necessary, really, and if I only said what I need to, I don't think I would post at all. Perhaps that would be a greater pleasure to some users of the forum

[Kirby]

I probably should also note that I have never played a game using the komi pie rule.

[SpongeBob]

That could be the case, sure. But with the blind bidding, neither side is at an advantage since both players bid.

Blind bidding? How does that work?

[ez4u]

Oh wait... It just occurred to me... if I bump into Kirby in some club, the only way for me to avoid the annoying komi-pie procedure will be to engage in an even more annoying process of trying to convince Kirby that I do not wish to do komi-pie... he might want to run through all the arguments why komi-pie is so good... why I will have to keep repeating that "i don't like it regardless"... over and over... like this thread... nightmare! So maybe its less hassle to just do the darned komi-pie with Kirby.

Or... I know... when I see Kirby - I just run like the wind!!!

Don't worry, in real life I am actually quite well behaved and, perhaps, a bit on the shy side.

BTW, I like your new avatar!

[Bantari]

Oh wait... It just occurred to me... if I bump into Kirby in some club, the only way for me to avoid the annoying komi-pie procedure will be to engage in an even more annoying process of trying to convince Kirby that I do not wish to do komi-pie... he might want to run through all the arguments why komi-pie is so good... why I will have to keep repeating that "i don't like it regardless"... over and over... like this thread... nightmare! So maybe its less hassle to just do the darned komi-pie with Kirby.

Or... I know... when I see Kirby - I just run like the wind!!!

Don't worry, in real life I am actually quite well behaved and, perhaps, a bit on the shy side.

BTW, I like your new avatar!

yeah - wanted to say the same thing! Cool cool.