The AGA makes me sad.

[wessanenoctupus]

i was voulenteering as National TD, but i quickly realized that i couldnt keep up with it, school, work and my own go.

The most frustrating this is organizing a tournament. Advertising, and then no one showing up because they thought noone else would show up....

[deja]

Regarding the lack of volunteers and the glut of complainers, what sort of needs does the AGA have for those interested in volunteering? I bet we could fill almost every need with willing bodies here on L19 alone.

http://www.usgo.org/org/volunteer.html

Thanks, Ross. That's a very useful link. I've been surfing the AGA website for the past 10 minutes now and still cannot find that link anywhere on the homepage, subpages, etc. I'll continue to look and might actually find it, but wouldn't you think a page calling for volunteers should be made available on the AGA hompage in broad daylight, or even as a subpage?

In any event, I'll be offering my time and services. In case anyone missed it, here's the email for volunteering - volunteer@usgo.org

edit: I also wanted to mention that Chris Garlock has been doing a fantastic job with the E-Journal. It's the only regular contact I have with the AGA. Go Chris!

[ross]

Thanks, Ross. That's a very useful link. I've been surfing the AGA website for the past 10 minutes now and still cannot find that link anywhere on the homepage, subpages, etc. I'll continue to look and might actually find it, but wouldn't you think a page calling for volunteers should be made available on the AGA hompage in broad daylight, or even as a subpage?

I've decided that the links on the AGA web site are completely useless and now, any time I want to find something, I just search Google with site:usgo.org.

It is unreasonable to expect someone to spend weeks or months on a project before they get any acknowledgement or support. However, the AGA doesn't need a lot of partially finished projects to keep track of. How about doing a good tournament pairing program as an open source project, kind of the way gnu-go has been developed? If it were an open source project then different people could do different parts and no one would be required to spend huge blocks of time.

I'm not looking for partially-finished projects, I'm looking for small, self-contained projects that are easy to accomplish and for which the volunteer can be lavishly praised for. I think that's the way to train an army of volunteers, not by providing only large-scale projects and requiring already-well-trained individuals.

(Incidentally, my pairing program is open source--you can find the mockups on sourceforge--but I really didn't mean to make this about my experience. I (and mdobbins) started writing that program well before the AGA came along with its request and will probably be hacking away at it long after the contest is closed. I did hope to garner some interest in it by getting a line or so mentioning it in the eJournal, but they felt that would unfairly look like they were endorsing one particular entry, and nixed that idea. I suppose this is really a different issue altogether since it's a contest with prizes rather than a request for volunteers, but I get the impression from other volunteer requests from the AGA that they're still asking for too much from too few. It'd be nice if we could just clone a bunch of pwaldrons and send them all to the US ...)

[gowan]

Thanks, Ross. That's a very useful link. I've been surfing the AGA website for the past 10 minutes now and still cannot find that link anywhere on the homepage, subpages, etc. I'll continue to look and might actually find it, but wouldn't you think a page calling for volunteers should be made available on the AGA hompage in broad daylight, or even as a subpage?

I've decided that the links on the AGA web site are completely useless and now, any time I want to find something, I just search Google with site:usgo.org.

It is unreasonable to expect someone to spend weeks or months on a project before they get any acknowledgement or support. However, the AGA doesn't need a lot of partially finished projects to keep track of. How about doing a good tournament pairing program as an open source project, kind of the way gnu-go has been developed? If it were an open source project then different people could do different parts and no one would be required to spend huge blocks of time.

I'm not looking for partially-finished projects, I'm looking for small, self-contained projects that are easy to accomplish and for which the volunteer can be lavishly praised for. I think that's the way to train an army of volunteers, not by providing only large-scale projects and requiring already-well-trained individuals.

(Incidentally, my pairing program is open source--you can find the mockups on sourceforge--but I really didn't mean to make this about my experience. I (and mdobbins) started writing that program well before the AGA came along with its request and will probably be hacking away at it long after the contest is closed. I did hope to garner some interest in it by getting a line or so mentioning it in the eJournal, but they felt that would unfairly look like they were endorsing one particular entry, and nixed that idea. I suppose this is really a different issue altogether since it's a contest with prizes rather than a request for volunteers, but I get the impression from other volunteer requests from the AGA that they're still asking for too much from too few. It'd be nice if we could just clone a bunch of pwaldrons and send them all to the US ...)

One problem with volunteer labor is that even when they are really dedicated (like pwaldron), when they are asked to do too much they burn out and quit.

[vash3g]

Daniel the Smith has been officially nominated for the board seat for the Central Region.

[daniel_the_smith]

Thanks, vash3g. (and to Violence & Redbeard, too)

I hope those of you in the central region will consider voting for me. Feel free to send me PMs or emails if you want to ask me something or offer unsolicited advice.

[Chew Terr]

When and where does voting occur? I looked it up, and Texas is indeed 'central'.

[daniel_the_smith]

Chapter representatives will be mailed ballots after nominations close on the 15th, I believe.

[Redbeard]

Thanks, vash3g. (and to Violence & Redbeard, too)

I hope those of you in the central region will consider voting for me. Feel free to send me PMs or emails if you want to ask me something or offer unsolicited advice.

Excellent! I'm glad you are in the running. The best of luck to you in the election.

There is still time for others to be nominated. My offer to nominate anyone from L19 for the Western Region or At Large position is still open. PM me with contact details by June 10th if you are interested.

[shapenaji]

We saw last year the disgraceful hounding of a couple of AGA volunteer officials largely by people who do nothing for the AGA. It is my contention that if these same critics were visibly doing something for the AGA, however small, at least one of those volunteers would not have quit.

Whom are you referring to?

EDIT: In response to your point though, I think putting the blame on the community is wrong-headed. It's like saying, "The problem with this country is that so few people vote", I think it's a symptom, not the actual problem. Without strong organizing from the top down, I think it's unreasonable to expect people to just naturally organize themselves.

[Javaness]

Whom are you referring to?
.

Either you or that new guy on the board I'd say.
I still find that whole thing quite perplexing, despite learning significantly more about it.

[HKA]

We saw last year the disgraceful hounding of a couple of AGA volunteer officials largely by people who do nothing for the AGA. It is my contention that if these same critics were visibly doing something for the AGA, however small, at least one of those volunteers would not have quit.

Whom are you referring to?

EDIT: In response to your point though, I think putting the blame on the community is wrong-headed. It's like saying, "The problem with this country is that so few people vote", I think it's a symptom, not the actual problem. Without strong organizing from the top down, I think it's unreasonable to expect people to just naturally organize themselves.

Sure, its got to come from the top. For example, say there is a major snafu about qualifications for a big event, and as a result a controversial decision is made and a lot of folks end up upset.

The leadership needs to make the rules very specific, so they can avoid that sort of thing in the future. And when they do so, they need a very organized volunteer to stay on top of the issue and make sure the rules are enforced. And the organized volunteer does that, enforces those rules, and, as a result many of the same folks who were upset that the rules were not followed before, become upset that these rules are being enforced now.

And folks suggest that people should get lawyers involved and suggest that the organized volunteer should step down.

And he does.

Volunteers need support and guidance from above, but they also need respect and support from below.

And people should not ask questions when they certainly should know the answer.

[shapenaji]

Whom are you referring to?
.

Either you or that new guy on the board I'd say.
I still find that whole thing quite perplexing, despite learning significantly more about it.

I do too,

I asked the question because the last time I assumed someone was talking about me, I was accused of being egocentric. I didn't want to make that mistake this time when I was deciding whether or not to get into the discussion.

The "disgraceful hounding" that Mr. Fairbairn refers to seems to consist of calling someone out for not obeying the rules (something I'm not ashamed of, Mr. Laird is welcome to his friends and his opinions, but he's not welcome to my silence on administrative issues if he's in a position of authority)

It also may refer to the post I made toward Phil which was heavily misconstrued, so much so that my comments (which included respect for his playing ability, teaching ability, and ability to manage, as well as concern that he was being misused as a buffer between two groups) suddenly took on a life afterwards as the cause of his leaving his position.

In either case, my comments were hardly disgraceful and hardly the primary movers.

Furthermore, Mr. Fairbairn should be careful about flinging comments such as "...largely by people who do nothing for the AGA."

On the one hand, he knows absolutely nothing about what I do for the AGA:
1) It so happens that I'm one of a very small minority of people that have connections to go clubs inside this country which are not AGA based. I have some connections to the local Korean Newspapers and community. And I'm largely responsible for a number of them showing up at the Congress held in Washington DC. They just came to watch for the time being. But it's a step. One of my Korean friends and I even took Ms. Juyeon Koh and her friend out for dinner during the congress to Little Korea.

2) I bring a go board with me wherever I go, and I make a point of teaching just about everyone who is willing to learn, including chess players in Dupont circle, my students, and every friend I have, online and in person. I don't do this to get good games, I'm a mid-to-upper dan player (depending on your rating system, of course), if all I cared about was getting a challenge and getting stronger... I wouldn't do this. I teach because I think go should be spread, I think it brings value.

When I play games with friends who are stronger, I do my best to do so in public spaces. Just to invite the question "what is that game?". I stopped by the Japanese Cultural Festival in DC and spent a number of hours of my time teaching passers by and then helping cleaning up afterwards. (Further, I make a point of arriving early to tournaments whenever possible, helping set up, and if I have time, helping to take things down)

--------------------------

But none of this really matters, I didn't do this stuff as a way of storing up ammunition for a post. I shouldn't need to have done any of this in order to have an opinion.

Tournament Directors and the AGA leadership, you guys exist for landed players, people who have learned the game and love it. You may bring new people to the game on your own time, but on official time, the tournaments, held in disused laboratories with signs emblazoned "beware of the leopard", are simply not visible enough to be what keeps go functioning in this country.

EDIT: I want to make clear, the AGF is another ballgame, you guys rock

Do I enjoy tournaments? Of course. Did I enjoy going abroad to play go? Definitely. Would I still be playing without both of these things? Certainly. I reached 5d AGA without ever interacting with the organization. I went to a tournament on a whim, 3 years after I was already head-over-heels for the game.

What keeps go functioning are the thousands upon thousands of "volunteers" (Though they clearly don't meet your exacting specifications) who spend their time teaching as many people as they can the game; The fansubbers who brought Hikaru no Go to an American audience; the movies and media advertising which continue to supply players (and yet which the AGA seems never to have had a hand in)

So, Mr. Fairbairn, kindly place your passive aggressive bs elsewhere.

[John Fairbairn]

I asked the question because the last time I assumed someone was talking about me, I was accused of being egocentric. I didn't want to make that mistake this time when I was deciding whether or not to get into the discussion.

shapenaji: you are being egocentric again.

[HKA]

Furthermore, Mr. Fairbairn should be careful about flinging comments such as "...largely by people who do nothing for the AGA."

On the one hand, he knows absolutely nothing about what I do for the AGA:
1) It so happens that I'm one of a very small minority of people that have connections to go clubs inside this country which are not AGA based. I have some connections to the local Korean Newspapers and community. And I'm largely responsible for a number of them showing up at the Congress held in Washington DC. They just came to watch for the time being. But it's a step. One of my Korean friends and I even took Ms. Juyeon Koh and her friend out for dinner during the congress to Little Korea.

2) I bring a go board with me wherever I go, and I make a point of teaching just about everyone who is willing to learn, including chess players in Dupont circle, my students, and every friend I have, online and in person. I don't do this to get good games, I'm a mid-to-upper dan player (depending on your rating system, of course), if all I cared about was getting a challenge and getting stronger... I wouldn't do this. I teach because I think go should be spread, I think it brings value.

When I play games with friends who are stronger, I do my best to do so in public spaces. Just to invite the question "what is that game?". I stopped by the Japanese Cultural Festival in DC and spent a number of hours of my time teaching passers by and then helping cleaning up afterwards. (Further, I make a point of arriving early to tournaments whenever possible, helping set up, and if I have time, helping to take things down)

--------------------------

But none of this really matters, I didn't do this stuff as a way of storing up ammunition for a post. I shouldn't need to have done any of this in order to have an opinion.

Tournament Directors and the AGA leadership, you guys exist for landed players, people who have learned the game and love it. You may bring new people to the game on your own time, but on official time, the tournaments, held in disused laboratories with signs emblazoned "beware of the leopard", are simply not visible enough to be what keeps go functioning in this country.

EDIT: I want to make clear, the AGF is another ballgame, you guys rock

Do I enjoy tournaments? Of course. Did I enjoy going abroad to play go? Definitely. Would I still be playing without both of these things? Certainly. I reached 5d AGA without ever interacting with the organization. I went to a tournament on a whim, 3 years after I was already head-over-heels for the game.

What keeps go functioning are the thousands upon thousands of "volunteers" (Though they clearly don't meet your exacting specifications) who spend their time teaching as many people as they can the game; The fansubbers who brought Hikaru no Go to an American audience; the movies and media advertising which continue to supply players (and yet which the AGA seems never to have had a hand in)

So, Mr. Fairbairn, kindly place your passive aggressive bs elsewhere.

I must say I find this response quite strange. John referenced folks quitting, so he certainly was not talking about Roy Laird, who did not quit anything, but lost an election.

As for Phil Waldron, Nick and I have discussed this in the past, and that is why I found his question in his previous post disingenous, which, apparently, it was.

You are right, of course, you do not need to defend your AGA contributions to comment here. I am not sure essentially telling Mr. Fairbairn to shut up is consitent with this position however.

What I find most strange though, is your defense of your AGA "contributions". To my eye, they are almost as nonexistant as they were uneccessary to mention.

All I can see is you invited some important Korean players to the Congress, they did not play, they did not participate, but that is certainly a worthy effort, and may lead to something. I say "may" because, two weekends ago, in the same local area, my Maryland Open was attended by zero Korean players. This is certainly a failure on my part, but shows no sign of any tangible success for your efforts.

Spreading go in your own way is also great, but calling this a contribution to the AGA suffers from a disconnect. Again, I have not seen any new members at the tournament or my club saying they learned from Nick.

Nick, you are a really interesting guy, and you have a skill set that many of the AGA denizons of disused laboratories who love "Beware of the Leopard (?)" signs do not. But I question whether you should consider your laudable efforts to teach and spread go, combined with a palpable attitude towards the AGA that is certainly not positive, as a contribution to the AGA.

You are correct, of course, that spreading Go is the key, and Hikaru and other media has done more for that than anything the AGA has done. You go too far when you say the AGA is always absent in these efforts - key AGA folks were involved in the pre Hikaru film "Pi" and certainly were intrumental in getting Janice Kim involved in the Shonen Jump Hikaru in this country and the ejournal seems to have lead the way in better coverage of the WAGC online.

Still, despite the growth of go in this country there is still a great untapped and unorganized pool of go players - whether they be Korean or simply online. The problem for American Go is how to harness the energy of these individuals to bring about more go activity in the US. Without organization, this cannot take place.

Right now, the AGA is that organization, even if that makes many here shudder. I think it would be extremely foolish to throw the AGA away. I also think you would have to be blind to not recognize that the AGA is far from perfect, and, in particular, is failing to make any headway in harneshing its own successes and the successes of outside forces.

The AGA needs to welcome new ideas and new energy. I suppose I am one of the dinosaurs who still believes that we need a structure of clubs and tournaments throughout the country to provide the type of face to face relationships necessary to build.

I would love some input on three issues.

First, general outreach to the public - quite frankly, there are already lots of good ways to do this, including what Nick is doing, but new ideas are great.

Second, how do we "grab" the players already out there and get them involved in the AGA?

Third, how do we raise money? We cannot get any traction with the 2,000 members we have - but what about the ejournal subscription numbers, or KGS members, or IGS, or Smart Go App sales? Do we have a good idea of what the actual "market" of go players in the US is, and how do we approach folks with this info?

Forgive the long post, I hope if you are still reading we can turn this thread's frown upside down (yes I have a 12 year old) and make it about ways the AGA can make us happy.