How to focus on Sente/Gote?

Thunkd · Post by **Thunkd** » Wed May 22, 2013 8:56 am

cyndane wrote:When is it right to make a gote move? If the value of the move is large enough? Obviously keeping sente is good, but when is losing sente worth it?

I find the way that you phrased this confusing. You seem to be asking when is it okay to not make a sente move and instead make a gote move. But if you really have a sente move... why would you not play it? If it is truly sente then your opponent will respond. As long as you have sente moves you can keep making them and your opponent will respond. If you ever run out of sente moves then you can come back and make the defensive gote move that you need to.

The problem becomes knowing when sente moves are truly sente. If your "sente" move will cost the opponent x number of points, and but letting him get the first move in some other situation by not playing the gote move will give him x+1 points then your move is no longer sente.

Basically if the damage that your opponent can do by ignoring your move is greater than the benefit you can get out of your followup move after he ignores you, then your move isn't sente. You just have to evaluate the board and decide which move is bigger.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed May 22, 2013 9:32 am

Thunkd wrote: You seem to be asking when is it okay to not make a sente move and instead make a gote move. But if you really have a sente move... why would you not play it? If it is truly sente then your opponent will respond.

NO NO NO NO NO NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Loads of bad moves are sente. There is nothing inherently good about sente. Good moves are good, good moves in sente are even better. Bad moves are bad, bad moves in sente are just as bad (or maybe even worse as if you like playing bad sentes then after your bad sente it is your turn again to make another bad move).

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Wed May 22, 2013 9:38 am

To be more concrete, suppose a move is one point in sente, and has a 40 point followup if ignored. It's absolutely sente, there's no question your opponent would not answer. Why not play it? At least two reasons are possible:

1. It may be that there are two choices of move that each get one point. Right now, it's not clear which does more for you. You should often wait, and see if another move
2. There is a potential ko on the board. You'd really like to save that ko threat, because the ko is worth many points.

Polama · Post by **Polama** » Wed May 22, 2013 9:49 am

Uberdude wrote: Loads of bad moves are sente. There is nothing inherently good about sente. Good moves are good, good moves in sente are even better. Bad moves are bad, bad moves in sente are just as bad (or maybe even worse as if you like playing bad sentes then after your bad sente it is your turn again to make another bad move).

That lesson has just started clicking for me. In a recent game I had an unsettled, largely surrounded group in the middle game. I could play a gote move, ensure smallish life and be done. Or I could extend, threaten to break into a loose moyo and after a few sente threats find life. Perfect! I lived in sente with a few extra points instead of living in gote.

Except that those sente moves had turned a loose, invadable moyo into formidable quasi-territory. Had I just lived in gote, the move my opponent got would not have strengthened the moyo nearly as much.

A lot of go is about about creating options for yourself and limiting your opponents options (killing a group means systematically removing all the options to find life). Sente moves often buy you a profit in points at the cost of future options. A good gote move, on the flip side, gives your opponent the initiative but first removes options he would have liked to kept.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed May 22, 2013 9:52 am

P.S. This reminds me of when I used to play tennis as a little kid and we'd only just learnt overarm serving. For tennis pros, serving is a big advantage, but for us it was actually a disadvantage and you'd tend to lose your service games with loads of balls into the net. Sente is similar to serving, in the hands of a pro it's an advantage, but for a beginner who doesn't know what to do with it can actually be bad.

You can get a similar idea in handicap games: if white is always attacking and doing sente things then black knows to respond and although he might not make the perfect move, it will probably be in the right area of the board. Sometimes it's better to play a gote move and let black decide what to do, and often you'll be pleasantly surprised how stupid he can be given the choice of anywhere to play.

Thunkd · Post by **Thunkd** » Wed May 22, 2013 10:02 am

Uberdude wrote:
Thunkd wrote: You seem to be asking when is it okay to not make a sente move and instead make a gote move. But if you really have a sente move... why would you not play it? If it is truly sente then your opponent will respond.
NO NO NO NO NO NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Loads of bad moves are sente. There is nothing inherently good about sente. Good moves are good, good moves in sente are even better. Bad moves are bad, bad moves in sente are just as bad (or maybe even worse as if you like playing bad sentes then after your bad sente it is your turn again to make another bad move).

I considered it an unspoken assumption that we weren't planning on making bad moves. There is nothing about sente or gote that makes a move good or bad. But I agree a bad move does not become good just because it is sente. I usually forgo giving advice along the lines of "Don't make a bad move." under the assumption that it should be an entirely obvious statement.

often · Post by **often** » Wed May 22, 2013 10:12 am

If you think your group is fine, play elsewhere.
If you think your group isn't fine, make it safe.

Play like that and don't worry about sente or gote.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed May 22, 2013 10:14 am

Thunkd wrote: I considered it an unspoken assumption that we weren't planning on making bad moves.

That's my plan, but unfortunately not my practice.

billywoods · Post by **billywoods** » Wed May 22, 2013 11:08 am

Thunkd wrote:I usually forgo giving advice along the lines of "Don't make a bad move." under the assumption that it should be an entirely obvious statement.

So your advice is "always play sente moves when they're available as long as good moves to play"? I think I could be forgiven for thinking that was entirely obvious (and equally unhelpful) too.

The discussion in this thread is on which sente moves are good moves to play, and which are bad. It is a surprisingly subtle question.

Thunkd · Post by **Thunkd** » Wed May 22, 2013 11:47 am

billywoods wrote:So your advice is "always play sente moves when they're available as long as good moves to play"? I think I could be forgiven for thinking that was entirely obvious (and equally unhelpful) too. The discussion in this thread is on which sente moves are good moves to play, and which are bad. It is a surprisingly subtle question.

Yes. My advice was that if you have a (good) sente move that you should make it, but then I went on to discuss that it's sometimes hard to determine which moves are truly sente and that it requires evaluating what happens if your opponent ignores your move and how effective your followup mmove is.

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Wed May 22, 2013 12:02 pm

I can't tell if you're being really unclear, or if you're confused. A move can be absolutely sente, something that your opponent must respond to, something that (locally) gains points, but still bad because you should hold off on playing sente.

Once you say "this is sente, and my opponent must respond", there's still questions of whether or not to play it.

Thunkd · Post by **Thunkd** » Wed May 22, 2013 12:47 pm

hyperpape wrote:I can't tell if you're being really unclear, or if you're confused. A move can be absolutely sente, something that your opponent must respond to, something that (locally) gains points, but still bad because you should hold off on playing sente.

I must be confused. So if we agree that move would be a good move... and that it would be sente... why would it be bad because I "should hold off on playing sente"? I don't understand that statement.

hyperpape wrote:Once you say "this is sente, and my opponent must respond", there's still questions of whether or not to play it.

When I consider moves, first I evaluate if it would be a good move or not... if it is not a good move I reject it and start over. After I've determined if it is a good move, I see if it is sente. If it is not I try to find another good move that is sente. I cannot imagine a situation where I would look at a move and decide whether it was sente before I tried to determine if it was a good move. If it is a bad move, I'm not going to play it, regardless of whether it is sente or not. Do other people do this?

oren · Post by **oren** » Wed May 22, 2013 12:56 pm

Thunkd wrote: I must be confused. So if we agree that move would be a good move... and that it would be sente... why would it be bad because I "should hold off on playing sente"? I don't understand that statement.

Ko threats and aji. You should only play it when the value of the sente move makes it worth playing. Playing one point sente moves early on in the game may hurt you later.

Thunkd · Post by **Thunkd** » Wed May 22, 2013 1:04 pm

oren wrote:
Thunkd wrote: I must be confused. So if we agree that move would be a good move... and that it would be sente... why would it be bad because I "should hold off on playing sente"? I don't understand that statement.
Ko threats and aji. You should only play it when the value of the sente move makes it worth playing. Playing one point sente moves early on in the game may hurt you later.

Duly noted. If the move destroyed aji I'm not sure I would still consider it a good move, depending on the situation.
Usually I would not play a 1 point move unless there was no bigger move on the board.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed May 22, 2013 4:01 pm

I think everyone above 29 kyu can understand that this

is a bad sente move, seeing as white can escape from the ladder:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Bad sente $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

It is better to play the gote move of escaping from the ladder black is playing that doesn't actually work:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Good gote $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Now you might think this is a trivial, facetious example, and to some degree it is. But I'm trying to make a point.

Next consider this move, another bad sente, peeping where you can cut. Now this is a pretty obvious cutting point (particularly given the preceding moves) so maybe 20(?) kyus and above would never play such an awful move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Bad sente $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 2 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 4 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is another bad sente move (it makes a much less interesting, not to mention wasting ko threats and liberties), but I've even see single digit kyus play it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Bad sente $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 1 2 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And here is a bad sente that a 3/4 dan (me) played, as it destroyed some very powerful aji I had in the corner (see http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 04#p129304).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Bad sente $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . O O . O O . O X O X O O X . . . | $$ | . . . O X X X X O O X X O . . X . X . | $$ | . . O X . . . . X X X . O . . X . O . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . X O O . X . X X O . | $$ | . O X X X . O . . X . . . . . O O X . | $$ | . O . O X O . . . . . O . . O O X . X | $$ | . O . O O X X . X X . . O . O X X X . | $$ | . X . . O O X . . . . X X O . O X X . | $$ | . . X X . X O O . , . . . O . O . O . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . X . X X O . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . X O O . . . . O X X . . O . | $$ | . X X X . . X . O . O O O O X X X X . | $$ | . O X O . . . . O . . X X O X O O X . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . . . . O O O X X . | $$ | . 1 O O X X X . . O . X X X O O O O X | $$ | . 2 O X O X O O . . O . . O X X O X . | $$ | . . . X O O . . O . O X X O X . X . X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . X . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now you might dismiss the first bad sente in a ladder example as a trivial stupidity, but perhaps to a pro who can see that corner aji at a glance my 4 dan bad sente above is almost as stupid. As you get stronger, what counts as a stupid sente (a.k.a thank you move) gets broader. Beware of sente!

Life In 19x19

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