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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #41 Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:32 am 
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[go]$$Wc Score - B: 30, W: 18
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . O . . . B . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
I've been going back and forth and all around between lots of moves in this area, being very indecisive. I don't know if this is the best move, but I don't want to spend any more time thinking about it. There are basically two aims of this move: (1) to freak him out about where my hidden stone might be, hopefully getting him to scan an empty point (although this probably won't happen since the elephant's eye is both where it looks like my stone might be and where he would like to play himself, so he'll just play there instead of scanning) and (2) to get in a sente reduction before I kill his lower right stone in gote. The downside to this move is that it looks like textbook aji keshi, a thank-you move that asks him to fix his elephant's jump.

I also considered trying to get in some kind of sente move against his lower left, again with the idea of freaking him out while he doesn't know where my hidden stone is, but the carpenter's square is really complicated, and I couldn't convince myself that I wasn't going to end in gote or suffer a loss if he responded correctly.
p.s. Don't read Phelan's hidden message! It contains the ultimate truth of the universe, too much for any human to survive!

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #42 Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:37 pm 
Gosei
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[go]$$Wc Score - B: 30, W: 16
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . O . . . B . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Points changed(-2), topazg made a scan. Do I have to say where? I can't find it in the rules you guys agreed to.

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Good Go = Shape.
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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #43 Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:38 pm 
Tengen
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I think scans are hidden - you just tell me if I found his hidden stone or not. If not, then that's fine too :D

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #44 Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:41 pm 
Tengen
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Time to play my hidden move ... (sent to Phelan) +1 point to White as normal.

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #45 Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:41 pm 
Tengen
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KGS: topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 30, W: 17
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


And my hidden move is at:

Ok, I'm going to trust MHO opponent here, but this is supposed to be a spectator game, so my hidden move is at:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 30, W: 17
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . O . . W X . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #46 Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:42 am 
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Quote:
I think scans are hidden - you just tell me if I found his hidden stone or not. If not, then that's fine too


So after a scan your opponent does not know if you fount the hidden stone or not... interesting.

I would have expected the scan and result not to be a secret.

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #47 Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:44 am 
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[go]$$Wc Score - B: 31, W: 17
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . B m . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Just to confirm the rules as I understand them for our purposes, each player gets one scan per game, and the coordinate scanned as well as the result are hidden from the other player.
I don't want to use my scan yet because I'll probably just miss, and I don't see any "ko threat" on the board that he could have played that is a total disaster for me if ignored. I'll probably use my scan later, once there are fewer useful points for his hidden stone to be; or even better, I'll figure out where his stone is based on him making otherwise strange moves and/or me playing on top of it. For example, maybe his hidden stone is on one of the two points necessary to cut the kosumi I just made, and his next move will be to complete the cut. But then I'll know where his hidden stone is without having to scan.

One thing I learned playing Magic: The Gathering is that you can't hold back all game because you're afraid your opponent might have a certain card in his hand. Then you're giving him an advantage even if he doesn't have it. So you almost have to play under the assumption that he doesn't have it, and then if he does, at least you forced him to play it out, and you can play on from there with a clear head. So I'm using the same philosophy here with the hidden stone. I can't go around the board playing half-baked moves because I'm afraid his hidden stone will negate what I play. I almost (again, ALMOST) have to play as though there is no hidden stone at all, which will force him to reveal its presence.

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #48 Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:32 pm 
Gosei
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You can move there, that is, didn't hit his hidden move.

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Good Go = Shape.
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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #49 Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:45 pm 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 31, W: 18
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . X m . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Well, this is a crazy game. Here's me trying to take advantage of my hidden stone. Logical progression is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 31, W: 17
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . X m . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 2 . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . 3 . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Now my stone becomes handy. Of course, I don't know where his is, so who knows whether this is going to become a disaster or not. The gamble is on !

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #50 Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:51 pm 
Gosei
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topazg hasn't hit MountainGo's hidden as well.

I believe that me confirming this every move is a bit pointless. I think it makes more sense for me to reveal when the opponent does hit your stone, or confirm your revelation.

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Good Go = Shape.
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This post by Phelan was liked by: topazg
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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #51 Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:09 pm 
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Phelan wrote:
topazg hasn't hit MountainGo's hidden as well.

I believe that me confirming this every move is a bit pointless. I think it makes more sense for me to reveal when the opponent does hit your stone, or confirm your revelation.
Yeah, the reason I sent you that PM was just to confirm that Graham's hidden stone wasn't on mine. Otherwise we can just check each other.

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #52 Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:46 pm 
Gosei
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Ah, no. There was no collision between hidden moves, or I would have said something.

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Good Go = Shape.
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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #53 Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:12 am 
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freegame wrote:
Quote:
I think scans are hidden - you just tell me if I found his hidden stone or not. If not, then that's fine too


So after a scan your opponent does not know if you fount the hidden stone or not... interesting.

I would have expected the scan and result not to be a secret.


From the pro-games I've seen, I'm reasonably certain that you are correct, and that in Batoo the scan location is open.

By the way Laurens, shall we interpret the rule that way in our game?

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #54 Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:03 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 32, W: 18
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . X m . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . O B . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . . . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
I wonder if this is where his hidden stone is. I like this move because it connects back to my hidden stone without making it look like that. I still don't want to scan, because I feel like there could come a moment when it is critical that I know where his stone is, and this is not such a moment. Also, 2 points isn't nothing.

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #55 Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:55 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 32, W: 19
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . X m . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . . W . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Let's fight ..

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #56 Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:34 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 33, W: 19
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . X m . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | p . . . . B O . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
If you think there are a lot of variations in a regular go game, try adding special ones for "and if his stone is here..." and "and if he thinks my stone is there..."! It just becomes ridiculous. Probably the worst (for me) place for his hidden stone to be right now is H7, which makes a lot of sense looking back at the board position when he played it. I could scan there, but for now, knowing for sure that it's there wouldn't really change what I play by much. For now I can't resist this move, which is an atari with my hidden stone but still looks plausible even without it. If I'm lucky I'll get to pull the rug out from under him later by capturing his last move.

On another note, his last move would be bizarre if he knew where my stone was, which tells me that he doesn't know. That makes it even better to try to continue his ignorance...

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #57 Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:37 pm 
Tengen
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KGS: topazg
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[go]$$Wc Score - B: 33, W: 20
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . X m . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X W . . . |
$$ | p . . . . X O . . . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Now I just hope his hidden stone doesn't interfere...

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #58 Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:45 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Score - B: 34, W: 20
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . @ . . . . |
$$ | . . m O . . . X m . . |
$$ | . . O . . . X . @ . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X O . . . |
$$ | p . . . . X O . B . p |
$$ | . X # X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O O m X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m O # . . X m . . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]
Well, here we go. He'll know where my hidden stone is now, but I've done some counting, and I'm just not going to get enough points unless I try for something mildly ambitious. Best case scenario, I take over the lower right area of the board, and all my stones on the board survive. Worst case scenario, his hidden stone is somewhere I totally didn't expect, and I suddenly lose. Right now I'm guessing his stone is on G9.

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #59 Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:50 am 
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MountainGo, could you show your hidden stone in hide tags? Its really hard to follow the game without knowing.

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 Post subject: Re: Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo
Post #60 Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:17 am 
Gosei
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His hidden move is at H6.

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Good Go = Shape.
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