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 Post subject: Re: Which ranking does always beat beginners?
Post #21 Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:05 am 
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Claint wrote:
Since you have defined the expected win percentage, which is 0.001, I can answer the problem from, say my side, using ELO rating system and EGF ranks.

I am pretty sure I haven't played 200 19x19 games yet, but I might be close or over if you count the smaller board games. My rating is 5-6kyu ish KGS. Let's say, I am the guy and I am 6kyu.

According to ELO formula the expected win percentage is magnified 10 times with each rating difference of 400. So for 0.001 chances, you need a rating difference of 1200.

So with EGF ranks: 6kyu = 1500 ELO rating.

That means we need a guy with 2700 rating. Which again with EGF ratings is equal to 7 dan amateur or 1d professional.

Note: This is a quick calculation and is probably wrong, since according to reference, EGF modifies the normal ELO formula somewhat. But 0.001 is a mighty difference.


Ref:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_ranks_and_ratings


I don't think you can assume that winning percentage in go increases by the same factor for each rank once you go past 2 or 3 stones difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Which ranking does always beat beginners?
Post #22 Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:10 am 
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Boidhre wrote:
Claint wrote:
Since you have defined the expected win percentage, which is 0.001, I can answer the problem from, say my side, using ELO rating system and EGF ranks.

I am pretty sure I haven't played 200 19x19 games yet, but I might be close or over if you count the smaller board games. My rating is 5-6kyu ish KGS. Let's say, I am the guy and I am 6kyu.

According to ELO formula the expected win percentage is magnified 10 times with each rating difference of 400. So for 0.001 chances, you need a rating difference of 1200.

So with EGF ranks: 6kyu = 1500 ELO rating.

That means we need a guy with 2700 rating. Which again with EGF ratings is equal to 7 dan amateur or 1d professional.

Note: This is a quick calculation and is probably wrong, since according to reference, EGF modifies the normal ELO formula somewhat. But 0.001 is a mighty difference.


Ref:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_ranks_and_ratings


I don't think you can assume that winning percentage in go increases by the same factor for each rank once you go past 2 or 3 stones difference.


Agreed, I doubt I'd lose a game in a thousand against KGS 6k.

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 Post subject: Re: Which ranking does always beat beginners?
Post #23 Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:24 am 
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You also need to play thousand games to lose one in a thousand.

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 Post subject: Re: Which ranking does always beat beginners?
Post #24 Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:36 am 
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Shinkenjoe wrote:
You also need to play thousand games to lose one in a thousand.


We are talking about ptobability here - even if my winning chance is 99.999% I could still lose the first game.

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 Post subject: Re: Which ranking does always beat beginners?
Post #25 Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:11 pm 
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Shinkenjoe wrote:
You also need to play thousand games to lose one in a thousand.


Actually, if you play 693 games at those odds, the probability is 0.500 that you will lose one.

Edit: Corrected, as lightvector pointed out.

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Last edited by Bill Spight on Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Which ranking does always beat beginners?
Post #26 Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:35 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Shinkenjoe wrote:
You also need to play thousand games to lose one in a thousand.


Actually, if you play 69 games at those odds, the probability is 0.500 that you will lose one.

Do you mean 690? (Actually, 692 or 693):
(999/1000)^692 ~= 0.50040
(999/1000)^693 ~= 0.49990

Claint wrote:
My rating is 5-6kyu ish KGS. Let's say, I am the guy and I am 6kyu.

According to ELO formula the expected win percentage is magnified 10 times with each rating difference of 400. So for 0.001 chances, you need a rating difference of 1200.

So with EGF ranks: 6kyu = 1500 ELO rating.

That means we need a guy with 2700 rating. Which again with EGF ratings is equal to 7 dan amateur or 1d professional.

Note: This is a quick calculation and is probably wrong, since according to reference, EGF modifies the normal ELO formula somewhat. But 0.001 is a mighty difference.


An interesting source of statistics about winning chances between mismatched players in even games can be found here:
http://gemma.ujf.cas.cz/~cieply/GO/statev.html

The most basic versions of the Elo model assume that if we have players A, B, C and the odds of player A beating B are 1:x (that is, a probability of 1/(x+1)), and the odds of player B beating C are 1:y, then the odds of player A beating C are 1:xy.

If we assume that this is true, then roughly eyeballing the stats on the G+4 column and multiplying up the odds for a 6k beating a 2k, and a 2k beating a 3d, and a 3d beating someone around 6d or 7d, it does actually look like you need to go up to about 6d or 7d before you reach an odds ratio of 1:999. Indeed, 0.001 is a mighty difference.

However, it's common wisdom that the chance of a weaker player beating someone much stronger falls off much faster than this sort of model would suggest. The stats on that site seem to bear this out. In almost every case, if you multiply up the appropriate odds ratios for the stats in the G+1 column and/or G+2 columns to get a prediction for the G+4 column, you obtain an odds ratio that's smaller than the actual one. For example, multiplying up the ratios for 6k beating 5k, 5k beating 4k, 4k beating 3k, 3k beating 2k, you get a odds ratio of 1:2.69, but the empirical ratio for 6k beating 2k is 1:3.67.

Whereas this effect is clear in the G+4 column, if you do the same thing for the G+3 column, you only barely see this effect. If you do it for the G+2 column, you basically don't see it at all and the simplistic model matches up pretty well relative to the noise in the stats.

Based on this trend and some intuition, it seems likely that the effect will continue to increase as the strength difference between the players increases, although there's no data to pin down how fast it will increase. But playing with these stats in a spreadsheet with various extrapolations for how fast, it looks like anywhere from about 2d to 5d would be a plausible guess for how strong you need to be to have only a 0.1% chance of losing against a 6k.


Last edited by lightvector on Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Which ranking does always beat beginners?
Post #27 Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:47 pm 
Honinbo

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lightvector wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Shinkenjoe wrote:
You also need to play thousand games to lose one in a thousand.


Actually, if you play 69 games at those odds, the probability is 0.500 that you will lose one.

Do you mean 690? (Actually, 692 or 693):
(999/1000)^692 ~= 0.50040
(999/1000)^693 ~= 0.49990


Thanks. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Which ranking does always beat beginners?
Post #28 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:31 pm 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Shinkenjoe wrote:
You also need to play thousand games to lose one in a thousand.


Actually, if you play 693 games at those odds, the probability is 0.500 that you will lose one.

Edit: Corrected, as lightvector pointed out.


OK. After winning 693 ganes with this porbability you have to star fearing. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Which ranking does always beat beginners?
Post #29 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:25 pm 
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Shinkenjoe wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Shinkenjoe wrote:
You also need to play thousand games to lose one in a thousand.


Actually, if you play 693 games at those odds, the probability is 0.500 that you will lose one.

Edit: Corrected, as lightvector pointed out.


OK. After winning 693 ganes with this porbability you have to star fearing. :D


Sorry, still wrong XD

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 Post subject: Re: Which ranking does always beat beginners?
Post #30 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:38 pm 
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illluck wrote:
Shinkenjoe wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Actually, if you play 693 games at those odds, the probability is 0.500 that you will lose one.

Edit: Corrected, as lightvector pointed out.


OK. After winning 693 ganes with this porbability you have to star fearing. :D


Sorry, still wrong XD

You have to be very afraid - that your opponent has gained seven or eight stones while you've been training him...


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 Post subject: Re: Which ranking does always beat beginners?
Post #31 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:55 pm 
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Yes, and there is of course the danger of you losing stones by playing so many games against a weaker player. However, for the purpose of the question I assumed you can ignore these two factors as it's only the probability of losing a single game (at least no more than 200 :p).

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 Post subject: Re: Which ranking does always beat beginners?
Post #32 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:11 pm 
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Jocke wrote:
Exactly! :bow: I think having that ranking is a definition of being good at go. That's my motivation. ;)


A fear of losing is unfortunately one of the few things that can prevent a player from progressing past the stage of being a beginner. I'd recommend reading David Mechner's advice. I particular, this part, which is one my favorite pieces of advice ever:

Quote:
Inevitably, you won't feel comfortable with a concept when it's first explained to you. The point is, if you don't go through step 2, you'll never get to step 3. The whole point here is that you have to do what you think is right intellectually before it feels right, and just by going through the motions, it will come to feel right and you'll improve. Some people find this hard to do because playing something you don't really understand feels dangerous, and danger in go means you might lose. But if your goal is to improve, don't worry about winning or losing. Really. Look; now I'm a 6-dan. Who cares how many games I lost when I was 5-kyu?

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 Post subject: Re: Which ranking does always beat beginners?
Post #33 Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:07 pm 
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Jocke wrote:
Also, if your answer to the question is "it depends", try to come up with a rank which would be absolutely impossible to beat.


If you are winning more than half of your games you are not giving the correct handicap!


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