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Offline ikkyu
 Post subject: Quick question about a net
Post #1 Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:51 pm 
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In watching IGS today, I saw this game where white had just played the marked stone. Before black made his next move, I thought that if he played on the triangle at M12, he could capture the white group in the middle.

He ended up playing H4 next, so it seems to me that I must be wrong since both players are far above my level. However, as much as I look at it, it seems that M12 works. What am I missing?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . T . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X O W . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X O O X X X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X O . O X X O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O X . X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . . O X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline lightvector
 Post subject: Re: Quick question about a net
Post #2 Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:02 pm 
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This sequence might not be optimal, but it shows that M12 doesn't kill white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c White pushes and cuts everywhere
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 3 6 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 5 X 2 1 9 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X O O 8 0 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X O O X X X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X O . O X X O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O X . X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . . O X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c And captures something
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X O X X 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X O O O O 1 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X O O B B B 4 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . O . 6 O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X O . O B B O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O X . X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . . O X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline ikkyu
 Post subject: Re: Quick question about a net
Post #3 Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 2:49 pm 
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Okay. Thanks.
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Offline Thunkd
 Post subject: Re: Quick question about a net
Post #4 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:49 am 
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lightvector wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c And captures something
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X O X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X O O O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X O O X X X O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . O . O O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X O . O X X O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O X . X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . . O X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But this might not be a bad result for black.
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Quick question about a net
Post #5 Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:38 am 
Oza

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Online playing schedule: When my wife is out.
Well...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c And captures something
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X O X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X O O O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X W O X X X W . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . O . O O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X O . O X X O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O X . X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . . O X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . M . . . . M . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If we count this, white has secured an area between the 4 marked points of about 52 points. White has a moyo on the bottom left of maybe another 40 or so, plus a likely corner in the lower right of another 20ish and a top left of a few points. Black has a loose moyo of a bit over 100 points, but it's still quite easy for white to invade, and the dead white stones have some aji as well. I think the left side could end up as a wash between the two. Certainly if black pushes to get a lot there, white's moyo will solidify pretty fast.

As a result, both sides maybe have the same total of potential + cash, but white has 50 points of territory already, while black has maybe 10-20 on the right side, and I think black is easier to invade or reduce than white.

This post by skydyr was liked by: Akura
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Offline Thunkd
 Post subject: Re: Quick question about a net
Post #6 Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:53 am 
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skydyr wrote:
Well...

So if you don't like this, what would you have preferred Black to do in this situation. What would your alternate plan for the game have been?
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Quick question about a net
Post #7 Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 10:13 am 
Oza

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Thunkd wrote:
skydyr wrote:
Well...

So if you don't like this, what would you have preferred Black to do in this situation. What would your alternate plan for the game have been?


As black, I think the 5 cutting stones need to be kept alive to keep white from gaining a strong position and to attack the center stones to build the top and right. Black also has more aji with the bottom group as long as white's group is weak. Perhaps one move over from the proposed net (N12)? I'm not entirely sure.
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Offline Unusedname
 Post subject: Re: Quick question about a net
Post #8 Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:36 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c And captures something
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X X O X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X O O O O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X O O X X X O . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . O . O O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X O . O X X O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O X . X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . O X . X . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 X W . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . W , X . . O X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . M . . . . M . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White's position on the bottom doesn't look that secure.
Can't black capture these cutting stones and live on the bottom?
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Quick question about a net
Post #9 Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:30 pm 
Judan
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He can almost certainly live on the bottom if he chases them:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X O O X X X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X O O . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X O . O X X O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . O X . X O O . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O X . X . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X O . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . O , X . . O X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Quick question about a net
Post #10 Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:52 pm 
Oza

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Unusedname wrote:
[
White's position on the bottom doesn't look that secure.
Can't black capture these cutting stones and live on the bottom?


Yeah, looking over this earlier I realize I made an assumption that white could take this but didn't really look at it too closely.
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