The Premise of a Tenuki
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SmoothOper
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The Premise of a Tenuki
I saw this in a sample page from a way to play go in the 21st century. I had an opportunity to ignore the kakari kick in a game, and I was pleasantly surprised how it turned out, given that most people play 7 at 8, and anyone can read that it will be a local loss, what is the strategic premise behind these plays? I am definitely thinking about sourcing a "Way to play go.."
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Phoenix
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Re: The Premise of a Tenuki
The premise is that you're certain to make up for the loss. This is a difficult strategy to play against a strong opponent simply because the local advantage White gets out of it is immediate and solid. 
would have to be put to very good use.
Between this and nullifying White's influence, since you can't let him get both solid gain as well as outward effect, Black will be hard pressed to get a good whole-board result.
On the other hand, White has to worry about Black building up an enormous influence.
Definitely playable. It's definitely a more dynamic style than I would use, but Go Seigen used to pull this stuff and was practically invincible for about three decades.
would have to be put to very good use.Between this and nullifying White's influence, since you can't let him get both solid gain as well as outward effect, Black will be hard pressed to get a good whole-board result.
On the other hand, White has to worry about Black building up an enormous influence.
Definitely playable. It's definitely a more dynamic style than I would use, but Go Seigen used to pull this stuff and was practically invincible for about three decades.
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SmoothOper
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Re: The Premise of a Tenuki
Phoenix wrote:The premise is that you're certain to make up for the loss. This is a difficult strategy to play against a strong opponent simply because the local advantage White gets out of it is immediate and solid.
Between this and nullifying White's influence, since you can't let him get both solid gain as well as outward effect, Black will be hard pressed to get a good whole-board result.
On the other hand, White has to worry about Black building up an enormous influence.
Definitely playable. It's definitely a more dynamic style than I would use, but Go Seigen used to pull this stuff and was practically invincible for about three decades.
But why take the loss in the first place? Black can go back and rescue the stone fairly easily, and having sente is nice. I am kind of interested in trying to figure out what Go's overall style/strategy is. The first kakari can serve as a probe? There is also a bit of a psychological advantage to not giving his opponent the satisfaction of a response.
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Phoenix
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Re: The Premise of a Tenuki
Thousands of pros have tried to understand Go's play, hoping that they would be the generation to best him, to no avail. My understanding here is that there's only one good response for Black locally. Go didn't like it, so he moved on. 
Above all, Go didn't like to follow his opponent's pace. Even though the kick and extend, giving Black a nice three-space extension from his two-stone wall and leaving a bad shape in regards to the corner is not considered very good play, it does leave White with sente.
I don't think Go is planning to save that stone. Ever. You'll notice that is just close enough, and yet far enough, that a White atari on the black stone doesn't yet undermine it.
What Go doesn't like, Go doesn't play.
Above all, Go didn't like to follow his opponent's pace. Even though the kick and extend, giving Black a nice three-space extension from his two-stone wall and leaving a bad shape in regards to the corner is not considered very good play, it does leave White with sente.
I don't think Go is planning to save that stone. Ever. You'll notice that
is just close enough, and yet far enough, that a White atari on the black stone doesn't yet undermine it.What Go doesn't like, Go doesn't play.
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Toge
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Re: The Premise of a Tenuki
Objective is to surround more territory than opponent. You can think of the game as one big ko fight, where each part of the board is calling for two moves in a row. Which two moves would be most valuable for me and which for my opponent?
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billywoods
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Re: The Premise of a Tenuki
Here's another perspective.
Situation 1, the black stone dies:
Does
here look good to you, capitalising on black's strange move 
? If not immediately, then when?
Situation 2, the black stone and white kick never existed:
, 
, 
look like perfectly reasonable moves to me, but does white really want to play here? Probably not - not now, and not for a long time. The exchange of the two marked stones gives black the option to pull the stone back out later. White has got thick locally, but black has developed much faster for the loss of a single stone.
Situation 1, the black stone dies:
Does
here look good to you, capitalising on black's strange move ? If not immediately, then when?Situation 2, the black stone and white kick never existed:
, , look like perfectly reasonable moves to me, but does white really want to play here? Probably not - not now, and not for a long time. The exchange of the two marked stones gives black the option to pull the stone back out later. White has got thick locally, but black has developed much faster for the loss of a single stone.-
Magicwand
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Re: The Premise of a Tenuki
Teniki bad for black. End of discussion.
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The greater the unknown"
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Prodigious
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Re: The Premise of a Tenuki
The diagram in the opening post probably does not appear in Go Seigen's book
There is really no reason not to play 7 here, since white will have to protect his stones with 8 anyway and then black gets to make the nice extension at 9 regardless. The 6-7 exchange has only served to help black.
This sequence does appear in the book, however, and I think it's a bit different in nature. The idea is that if white extends upwards in response to black's kick, black is going to pincer and attack the white stones. That is why white opts to not extend upwards and instead extends under the star point on the side and develops pretty rapidly in comparison to black.
There is really no reason not to play 7 here, since white will have to protect his stones with 8 anyway and then black gets to make the nice extension at 9 regardless. The 6-7 exchange has only served to help black.
This sequence does appear in the book, however, and I think it's a bit different in nature. The idea is that if white extends upwards in response to black's kick, black is going to pincer and attack the white stones. That is why white opts to not extend upwards and instead extends under the star point on the side and develops pretty rapidly in comparison to black.
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RobertJasiek
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Re: The Premise of a Tenuki
The simple answer is: A local loss is global speed.
A complex answer could try to clarify which (in absolute terms) of the two is better (or whether they are equal).
A complex answer could try to clarify which (in absolute terms) of the two is better (or whether they are equal).
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SmoothOper
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Re: The Premise of a Tenuki
Prodigious wrote:The diagram in the opening post probably does not appear in Go Seigen's book
There is really no reason not to play 7 here, since white will have to protect his stones with 8 anyway and then black gets to make the nice extension at 9 regardless. The 6-7 exchange has only served to help black.
This sequence does appear in the book, however, and I think it's a bit different in nature. The idea is that if white extends upwards in response to black's kick, black is going to pincer and attack the white stones. That is why white opts to not extend upwards and instead extends under the star point on the side and develops pretty rapidly in comparison to black.
Thank you for the clarification, I don't like to quote the book exactly without trying to reinterpret it myself.
It appears that in this case the purpose is to rapidly develop a large moyo, which is what I am starting to see as part of Go Seigens style, the whole game as a two move ko threat angle is interesting given Go's propensity to win ko fights, maybe this is an integral part of his style.
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Bill Spight
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Re: The Premise of a Tenuki
SmoothOper wrote:Thank you for the clarification, I don't like to quote the book exactly without trying to reinterpret it myself.
But then your readers will not know what the book said, will they? They will be likely to get the wrong impression.
In this case, the title of the thread is "The Premise of a Tenuki", but then you show a tenuki and attribute it to Go Seigen, and then it seems that he never made it or proposed it.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Bill Spight
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Re: The Premise of a Tenuki
Here is a similar position from Go Seigen's 21st Century Go, vol. 10 (in Japanese).
Again, if
were at 17, Black would pincer.
Again, if
were at 17, Black would pincer.The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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SmoothOper
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Re: The Premise of a Tenuki
Bill Spight wrote:SmoothOper wrote:Thank you for the clarification, I don't like to quote the book exactly without trying to reinterpret it myself.
But then your readers will not know what the book said, will they? They will be likely to get the wrong impression.
In this case, the title of the thread is "The Premise of a Tenuki", but then you show a tenuki and attribute it to Go Seigen, and then it seems that he never made it or proposed it.
Yes, precisely I am not lifting copyrighted material, if they want the original source they can get the original source, it was cited.
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Re: The Premise of a Tenuki
SmoothOper wrote:Bill Spight wrote:SmoothOper wrote:Thank you for the clarification, I don't like to quote the book exactly without trying to reinterpret it myself.
But then your readers will not know what the book said, will they? They will be likely to get the wrong impression.
In this case, the title of the thread is "The Premise of a Tenuki", but then you show a tenuki and attribute it to Go Seigen, and then it seems that he never made it or proposed it.
Yes, precisely I am not lifting copyrighted material, if they want the original source they can get the original source, it was cited.
I think what Bill is getting at is that if you have a position you have a question about, but when you ask the question you present a slightly different position, the answer may no longer be relevant to the position you were originally wondering about.
I'm no lawyer, but my understanding is that if you're not reproducing significant portions of the text, but instead just an excerpt (like a single problem or a couple diagrams), you are not going to run afoul of any copyright restrictions.
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Re: The Premise of a Tenuki
SmoothOper wrote:Bill Spight wrote:SmoothOper wrote:Thank you for the clarification, I don't like to quote the book exactly without trying to reinterpret it myself.
But then your readers will not know what the book said, will they? They will be likely to get the wrong impression.
In this case, the title of the thread is "The Premise of a Tenuki", but then you show a tenuki and attribute it to Go Seigen, and then it seems that he never made it or proposed it.
Yes, precisely I am not lifting copyrighted material, if they want the original source they can get the original source, it was cited.
but copyright law allows for fair use citations.