How do you study go books?

[foeZ]

Hey all,

I recently received my order of 3 different go books with the determination of mastering their contents quickly so I can improve fast!
However, I find it much more difficult to work through them than I expected.

The first book I'm working through is one that is particularly useful for me personally. It's Dictionary of basic joseki part 1 by Yoshio Ishida. It's a book that explains all basic joseki around the 3-4 point. Since I almost always play the double 3-4 point as both black and white, I feel that I can learn a lot of practical things from this book because I don't have to play outside of my comfort zone by using different openings just to experiment with the information I'm learning. After that I'm going to go through parts 2 and 3 which are about the 3-5, 4-4, 4-5 etc.

I'm doing this because I believe that studying joseki in a bit more depth rather than just remembering them by heart or just not learning them at all will teach me a lot about good shape and good exchanges.

But I've been busy studying it for little over an hour now, and I've gotten to page 5 out of 260+

So my question is, how do you study go books?

I personally like to place the stones on a real board, go over the variations that are explained in the book and use that knowledge to experiment with moves that I would make and see why they are not mentioned in the book by playing out a bunch of variatons and evaluating the outcome. Most of the time, the outcome is heavily in favor for one player and I understand why it isn't even mentioned.

[Phoenix]

Like any book you can learn from. Think of it as a craft, like sewing. You read it, try to understand it, then try it out yourself. This means applying them in the context of games.

Working through a joseki dictionary must be a horrendous task. I found "38 Basic Joseki" to be plentiful, explanatory (both on local moves and whole-board thinking), and enough to get a good sense of joseki in general. When one crops up, I look it up somewhere else.

Conceptual books are a lot easier, especially if they come with problems. I keep suggesting "Attack & Defense" to people because it touches on an important subject on a theoretical as well as a practical way, well explained, and gives immediate examples while being easy to use in-game.

Would you learn to speak from a word dictionary? What does that have? Words, pronunciation, type, spelling and a description of meaning. Great! But how do you use it in a sentence? How did this word come to be? When is it appropriate to use? A joseki dictionary is just as useful. You need the grammatical foundation as well as an understanding of the mechanics of language.

So save yourself! Don't 'work through' a dictionary! When a joseki crops up in review or during your games, find it in your dictionary! Think through each move (they're supposed to be optimal, right?). It's a reference work.

There are essentially three types of Go books: pattern, theoretical and problem. Often a book is a bit of each. Look up patterns when necessary, or when it takes your fancy to study this or that pattern. Read the theory, try to understand it, then use it as quickly as possible in games. Solve tsumego when you feel like it, and to it thoroughly.

That's how you get the most of each book.

[foeZ]

Most conceptual books I already read. They're more recreational for me because they generally don't have a lot of variations in them. So I don't have to actually play them out on a board.
One of my favorite books is still "Positional Judgement, High-Speed Game Analysis" by Cho Chikun.

[Twitchy Go]

Hey all,

I recently received my order of 3 different go books with the determination of mastering their contents quickly so I can improve fast!
However, I find it much more difficult to work through them than I expected.

The first book I'm working through is one that is particularly useful for me personally. It's Dictionary of basic joseki part 1 by Yoshio Ishida. It's a book that explains all basic joseki around the 3-4 point. Since I almost always play the double 3-4 point as both black and white, I feel that I can learn a lot of practical things from this book because I don't have to play outside of my comfort zone by using different openings just to experiment with the information I'm learning. After that I'm going to go through parts 2 and 3 which are about the 3-5, 4-4, 4-5 etc.

I'm doing this because I believe that studying joseki in a bit more depth rather than just remembering them by heart or just not learning them at all will teach me a lot about good shape and good exchanges.

But I've been busy studying it for little over an hour now, and I've gotten to page 5 out of 260+

So my question is, how do you study go books?

I personally like to place the stones on a real board, go over the variations that are explained in the book and use that knowledge to experiment with moves that I would make and see why they are not mentioned in the book by playing out a bunch of variatons and evaluating the outcome. Most of the time, the outcome is heavily in favor for one player and I understand why it isn't even mentioned.

I agree with Phoenix here. It will be a lot easier to handle your joseki dictionaries if you use them to study joseki that appear in your games. In part this is because the majority of amateur go players don't ever study joseki exhaustively. Because of this you probably won't often get the chance to delve into that obscure variation of a joseki(or even the main line with some). However, it doesn't have to be the exact joseki that shows up in game.

$$c Some Joseki. Marked stone is part of lower left.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . X . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . O O X X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . W . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Some Joseki. Marked stone is part of lower left.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . X . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . X . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . . O O X X X X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . . , . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . W . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For example. Lets say the upper left joseki appears in your game. There are a few variations after the solid connection that affect how easily invaded the position is, but all in all the variations are pretty similar. I think it would be reasonable to look at any of the other 3 joseki, among others after seeing the first one. The top right evolves from knowing how the hanging connection vs the solid connection works. The lower left is a variation where black takes more territory by giving up more thickness. And the lower right allows you to change the focus of your direction(This one can suck because it can move into the small AND large avalanche).

As to actually studying joseki, I like to prove the joseki. I arbitrarily decide which branches I'm going to study first,i.e. decide on an end position. And then proceed to prove the joseki. Barring branch moves that I know from the book are also joseki(I'm only focused on my chosen variation) I check why they had to respond this way. You should be able to objectively say this or that is better. In most cases if you resort to saying "this feels bad" you haven't looked hard enough. Then I can go back and look at other viable variations of the joseki.

This method is incredibly time consuming, but there are joseki I studied months ago, and that don't come up in my games much, that I can roughly remember. Although these are usually joseki that can end in tears if a mistake is called out.(There's more of these then you'd think ) My biggest problem is usually forgetting that the two moves I'm mulling over are both joeski and wasting a lot of time thinking if either ones going to mess me up

[TIM82]

So save yourself! Don't 'work through' a dictionary! When a joseki crops up in review or during your games, find it in your dictionary! Think through each move (they're supposed to be optimal, right?). It's a reference work.

I have heard this often, but disagree to some extent.

In addition to checking later things that came up in games I also read through sections of joseki dictionaries relatively often. I'm not trying to memorize long variations, and I don't play anything on board. Instead I look for ideas of different possible moves at key junctions, and also try to compare sente/gote results and who got what where.

This helps to me to be aware of more options during a game - what kinds of results could be available, what kinds of moves are at least somewhat reasonable to consider. I rely quite a lot on reading and experince to get from those memorized key junction options to the kind of results I know should follow. This leads sometimes to amusing mistakes

[Twitchy Go]

@TIM82
That seems like a good idea. How do you decide what parts to read? Especially since the joseki dictionary I've seen are organized around coordinates(3-3,3-4,3-5 etc.) Say the 21st century dictionary of basic joseki(2 volumes). If you read cover to cover in order. You would only have key junctures for 3-4 points for a quite some time.

[Unusedname]

Books in general? Or specifically joseki books?

I've been learning 3-4 joseki as well and what i've been doing is going through the moves and asking myself what if black passed here. Or what if white passed here.

And just reading out what maximum damage could be done.

Knowing why a move is necessary helps to solidify it in your mind.

If you can do all this in your head it helps your reading improve, but myself I still have trouble picturing the side of the board and my liberty count gets all messed up.

But for me doing this is killing two birds with one stone.

[oren]

I'll often out down stones on game commentary books. I generally don't do it for dictionaries or tsumego, so that I can go through it a little quicker.

[Bill Spight]

Hey all,

I recently received my order of 3 different go books with the determination of mastering their contents quickly so I can improve fast!

However, I find it much more difficult to work through them than I expected.

Remember what Talleyrand said:

Slow down. I'm in a hurry.

The first book I'm working through is one that is particularly useful for me personally. It's Dictionary of basic joseki part 1 by Yoshio Ishida. . . .

I'm doing this because I believe that studying joseki in a bit more depth rather than just remembering them by heart or just not learning them at all will teach me a lot about good shape and good exchanges.

Very good!

But I've been busy studying it for little over an hour now, and I've gotten to page 5 out of 260+

At this rate, you will work through the book in only 52 hours. To master that material, that's really quite good. (Actually, you will probably go more quickly as you master the requisite shape and tesuji.)

[jts]

Do you have a source for the Talleyrand quote?

Oh, and a tip for anyone who uses foez's method of studying diagrams: single-convex stones! So much easier to do variations.

[Bill Spight]

Do you have a source for the Talleyrand quote?

Sorry, it was something I picked up in high school. The story was that Talleyrand was in a hansom cab and the driver was going so fast that the cab was lurching from side to side. Talleyrand stuck his head out and called up to the driver, "Slow down. I'm in a hurry."

It may have been where I found this quote:

"Society is like a cup of coffee: the dregs sink to the bottom while the scum rises to the top." -- G. B. Shaw

[Twitchy Go]

Do you have a source for the Talleyrand quote?

Oh, and a tip for anyone who uses foez's method of studying diagrams: single-convex stones! So much easier to do variations.

Of course there is something to be said for either
a)remembering the position you diverged from joseki at. And then just removing the extra stones.
b)replaying the joseki from scratch.
Both would help solidify the shape and move order of the joseki more in your head. I think that the goal of studying joseki is to make joseki moves instinctive. Through study you reach a point where instead of trying to figure out what moves work,(i.e. not getting you killed,pressed low, sealed in etc.) and spend your time deciding which of the moves you know work is best on this board. Another useful thing would be if you can project the finished shapes onto the board without reading, you can spend your time figuring out how nearby stones might cause problems or give benefits. Or even finding that non-joseki move that works wonderfully because of say a nearby weak group?

[foeZ]

Well the main reason I'm going through this book right now is because as black I open up like this as black:
(note that I used some other standard opening for white that I commonly use and they're all 3-4 openings)

$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b a . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c This is a label for the diagram.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b a . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After this opening, white usually approaches at a,b,c,d or e with a being the most common.
Understanding (not knowing, there's a big difference) all the 3-4 approach joseki would put me at a significant advantage against my opponent because I can choose a joseki to play which will give me a result that's AT LEAST equal if not better for me. And if my opponent makes a mistake, it only makes us go into the game with a significant advantage for me.

And since I already have a reasonably okay understanding of attack and defense, I should be able to get a pretty good lead mid game, or at least not fall too far behind.

Does that make sense?

[jts]

Do you have a source for the Talleyrand quote?

Sorry, it was something I picked up in high school. The story was that Talleyrand was in a hansom cab and the driver was going so fast that the cab was lurching from side to side. Talleyrand stuck his head out and called up to the driver, "Slow down. I'm in a hurry."

It may have been where I found this quote:

"Society is like a cup of coffee: the dregs sink to the bottom while the scum rises to the top." -- G. B. Shaw

That second quote actually goes back to 1780 or so - originally referring to a barrel of beer (I hope poor Shaw wasn't actually drinking scummy coffee!)

Edit: ah, it's a corruption of this, from Man and superman -

  TANNER. But are your brigands any less honest than ordinary citizens?   89
  MENDOZA. Sir: I will be frank with you. Brigandage is abnormal. Abnormal professions attract two classes: those who are not good enough for ordinary bourgeois life and those who are too good for it. We are dregs and scum, sir: the dregs very filthy, the scum very superior.

[Twitchy Go]

After this opening, white usually approaches at a,b,c,d or e with a being the most common.
Understanding (not knowing, there's a big difference) all the 3-4 approach joseki would put me at a significant advantage against my opponent because I can choose a joseki to play which will give me a result that's AT LEAST equal if not better for me. And if my opponent makes a mistake, it only makes us go into the game with a significant advantage for me.

And since I already have a reasonably okay understanding of attack and defense, I should be able to get a pretty good lead mid game, or at least not fall too far behind.

Does that make sense?

One possible idea is to just lay out some joseki without bothering to study them(for now) in the context of this opening. Maybe use as sgf editor so you could jump between branches easily. After deciding what joseki you like in the position, figure out how to get there safely. And how to handle the situation if they go down a different variation.