Why thank you. Your advice really means something to me. I'm really sorry I didn't first ask you whether or not I should care.

No problem, I forgive you.
And - if you don't care, why all the fuss? It seems so redundant, no?

_________________
- Bantari
______________________________________________
WARNING: This post might contain Opinions!!

I thought, and continue to think, that the backbone of civility on this forum (and it was specifically civility that you mentioned) is providing prompt and useful replies to questions, game reviews, and requests for help; and also showing people how to upload .sgf's, welcoming introductions, answering the same question for the fifty-ninth time, posting answers when you've tried to solve a tsumego, menial stuff like that.

I also think that if you're concerned about the level of civility on the forum, the best way to raise the level is to make contributions to that backbone. If you think your time is too valuable to make contributions, the next best thing is to be vocal about how much you appreciate people who are making L19 civil. Standing up for NoSkill a few times a year is, imho, an amusing approach.

In my opinion, contributions and civility are separate. I'd be willing to give a bigger benefit of doubt for frequent contributors, but their contributions do not entitle them to poor behaviour.

In addition, the objective validity of a point does not change regardless of who makes them.

I'm not a fan of the approach used in this post, but I can definitely see how responses such as the one quoted could discourage people from speaking up and provoking a fight of the type he is complaining about.

I still wonder how many are silenced by the mod preview feature.
Yes, I could hide but I prefer to be honest.

@JB: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99bbRIeK6SI

_________________
"The connection between the language in which we program and the problems and solutions we can imagine is very close" -- Bjarne Stoustrup

I think contributions and civility are separate, too. Take most of John F.'s (astonishing) contributions. If he had not put the time and effort into those original essays, none of us would ever have known what we were missing. The civility of the forum would not have suffered as a result. On the other hand, if you take the handful of people who are responsible for most of the game reviews on any given month and removed them, we would have a forum where people's requests for help would routinely go unanswered, and people felt that their requests were most likely to meet the sting of rejection. The former sort of contributions don't affect the civility of the forum, the latter do.

If Redundant had, for some reason, accused John F. of being a net negative to the civility of the forum, it wouldn't have seemed self-evidently wrong or ludicrous. But when a review sits for several days without a response, all of us have said, sotto voce, "Helping you isn't worth my time." At the time, Uberdude was, on an almost daily basis, letting people know that helping them was worth his time. Do I need to belabor my point?

I completely agree with your post, except for the unspoken implication. Civil contributions are not a currency, and people's worth is not counted by their net value. In the thread that Redundant linked to, you said:

which may well be true, but he should still be punished if he does this, just like anyone should. It's far more appropriate to talk about (un)civil actions than (un)civil people.

Yes, I fight on the forum. And where has it gotten me? I've been the same rank (or maybe I've gotten weaker) for at least around 4 years now.

I started visiting this forum, for these reasons that come to mind:
* Enjoyment of go
* Improvement at go
* Establishment of positive relationships with people in the go community
* Opportunities related to go (eg. tournaments, etc.)

Of these reasons that I decided to start coming to the forum, I can see that, for the most part, none of my objectives have been accomplished. In some cases, I've accomplished the opposite of my original objectives. So... score, self! Over the last few years, I've spent a significant amount of time... maybe raising my stress level?

Forum fighting can have a negative impact on others, but mostly, I think I'm hurting myself.

_________________
be immersed

So the comment about the folly of playing blitz in long time limits was completely lost on you then?

_________________
North Lecale

_________________
Tempus Vincit Omnia

The folly is playing blitz with long time limits and expecting detailed reviews from mid to high level dans for such a game.

_________________
http://tchan001.wordpress.com
A blog on Asian go books, go sightings, and interesting tidbits
Go is such a beautiful game.