Beginner issues - how to improve?

[billywoods]

As for the specific "gl hf" I don't understand those who see it as rude

I find it (and most other throwaway shut-up-and-get-on-with-it acronyms) about as rude as not speaking. (It makes me think of someone sitting opposite a board from me, not looking at me, saying "hi have a nice game" in a completely flat and uninterested tone, already placing their first stone.) That said, compared to the rest of the internet, that's not very rude. It doesn't bother me. But it's still a far cry from over-the-board go, and that's where some people learnt, so that's what some people will be used to.

[RobertJasiek]

Apart from the obvious "more playing", you need mainly three things:

1) Learn tactical reading to verify that your newly played stones are connected to your nearby living stones. Do not play new stones that can simply be captured.

2) Know in which area of the board you should play, which of your groups there should be developed and in which direction your new stones should work.

3) Knowledge guiding you about what to think. Since you cannot acquire this from clubs and go servers can be a tough place for newbies' demand for knowledge, you need literature (if you ask in the Books forum, I can recommend suitable books). If you find out that even literature does not help you, a teacher can help.

[karaklis]

Another practical suggestion to Voss:

There is a nice site for beginners: 321go
It contains a go course for very beginners with tons of exercises.
Once you have solved (and understood) the problems you should be around 12-15k.

[Unusedname]

I heard someone on KGS say you need to lose 100 games to learn go, but is it really just that simple? During the games I feel like I'm at loss to know where I should move and why. I keep getting trapped, and though I have learnt to give up when I can't escape, I have no idea how to avoid getting trapped in the first place. And worse yet, I really don't know what to do when the opponent jumps into my territory. In other words, I really don't know how to respond to nearly all moves. Honestly, I feel bad for my opponents because I'm this bad!
I'm sorry for making such a long post, I'll hurry up and get to my questions now.

I think yes.

My favorite quote is something like.

"You have to be hit 10 times before you can see the punch coming. 20 times before you can dodge it. And finally 30 times before you can do the punch yourself.

Playing more gets you more familiar with your stones and your groups.

Otherwise start throwing your opponents moves back at them and see how they react. And if they are successful try to react the same way.

[Voss]

Part of the "lose 100 games quickly" thing is that it's hard for me to know what to focus on in a review of your games, since most of the mistakes that catch my eye will disappear a few games later. Nonetheless, some comments on Voss-Newkirk.

10: If you're going to play a move locally, play G2. (Can you see why B can't reply to G2 at G3?) Just in general, you should recognize that the F4-F3-G3 shape is bad news if G4 is empty. Further, you should realize that you don't need to reply to a second-line move directly; for example, you could play D5.

20: Cutting and connecting are the soul of Go. When you cut groups apart, you can usually attack one side and either capture it or profit from attacking it. D7 and E6 can currently be cut apart (if B plays at E7). I'm not going to say that connecting these stones is mandatory, but if you're going to add another play locally, connecting them (maybe with E7 or E8) is a solid play.

24: Hm! Do you recognize this shape? Can you think of any alternative places you could have played?

36: Since I've noticed you playing here twice now, I'll suggest O4, O3, and R8 as fun alternatives to play around with.

42: What do you do if B responds at O7? What strategic purpose does Q8 have then? Remember, cutting and connecting.

62: Not necessary. What happens if B cuts here?

66: Not necessary.

80: Remember, cutting and connecting. If you're going to play around here, it needs to be O10. Then O11 and P10 are cut off from each other and you might be able to capture something.

84: You can still live with R18.

94: It is extremely urgent that you play R13. Worth 60 points.

144: Unnecessary.

154: Locally, the c4 cut is better.

166: Sensible, but not strictly necessary. Even if B plays J14 and cuts W's stones, W has three liberties on both groups and B only has two, so J14 still wouldn't be a forcing move.

168-184: These small moves are worth 1-4 pts each, but the bottom side is almost completely open.

Thank you so much for taking the time to make such a detailed post.
10: I’m not sure, but is it because if I went G2, and B went G3, then I would go G4 and put him in Atari?

24: Would B9 or D11 have been better?

42: If B went O7 I think I would just have gone R7. But I see that Q8 is probably a better move altogether to prevent black from connecting.

62: Cutting would mean B went R17, right? I was thinking I should go Q17, but I tried playing it out in GoWrite a few times, and I kept ending up with a live black group in the corner. So I think R18 would be better? At least I can’t make proper eyes with black in the corner after playing W R18.

94: Ow… I didn’t notice that at all.

Thank you very much for the detailed feedback on the game, it was very helpful!

Anyway, on preview Dusk Eagle is right, and I apologize for derailing your thread, Voss.

I actually didn't mind it very much, I thought it was very interesting. I found the speaking and undo discussion very helpful too.
Personally I would never ask for an undo against another player, and I thought it was rather rude when my opponent asked for 3 undos in one of those games, so I denied it. If he had said "misclick" or something, then I would have let him of course, but since he said nothing I assumed he had simply changed his mind about the position. I have no idea how to tell the difference between a misclick and a mistake unless the opponent says so.
As for the whole talking thing, I'm a bit torn as well. I was puzzled when my first opponent said "Hi gg", as in other online games I have played, normally the winner says "gg" after kicking the loser's butt. And saying "gl" wouldn't that imply that your opponent needs luck to win against you? I think it was very useful to see different opinions about it. I certainly don't want to be rude to anyone, so it is nice to know what may be expected.


Some of you suggest getting a teacher, and I very much like that idea. But I'm really not sure how to get one or how it would normally work online? And how expensive would it normally be?

And thank you all very much for taking the time to post. All of your posts are very helpful, so thank you!

[jts]

Re 10: If W plays E2, the stone at F2 is captured and can't be saved.
Re 42: You don't mean Q8 is better, do you?
Re 62: R18 is correct. This is called a "ladder" - black can get two liberties on his own turn, but then you bring him back down to one and if he (foolishly) plays out the ladder to the edge of the board, you capture him there. R18 Q17 P17 Q18 P18 Q19 P19 and you have demonstrated to Black that the cut does not work.

[Dusk Eagle]

A professional teacher will probably cost you about $35/hour. However, at your level, it is quite simple to get teaching games for free by just going to the KGS Teaching Ladder room on KGS (under "Rooms -> Lessons" I believe).

[oren]

A professional teacher will probably cost you about $35/hour. However, at your level, it is quite simple to get teaching games for free by just going to the KGS Teaching Ladder room on KGS (under "Rooms -> Lessons" I believe).

I think more than that based on the US ones teaching on KGS.

[Voss]

Re 10: If W plays E2, the stone at F2 is captured and can't be saved.
Re 42: You don't mean Q8 is better, do you?
Re 62: R18 is correct. This is called a "ladder" - black can get two liberties on his own turn, but then you bring him back down to one and if he (foolishly) plays out the ladder to the edge of the board, you capture him there. R18 Q17 P17 Q18 P18 Q19 P19 and you have demonstrated to Black that the cut does not work.

I've tried playing out #10 a few times, but I don't see how B F2 is captured. If W goes E2, won't B just go D2 and put E2 in atari? I feel like such a noob, but the only way I see W E2 capturing anything is if B goes E1, W goes D2, B goes F1, W goes D1, B goes G3, W goes G2 and puts B F1, F2 and E1 in atari.

36: Since I've noticed you playing here twice now, I'll suggest O4, O3, and R8 as fun alternatives to play around with.

42: What do you do if B responds at O7? What strategic purpose does Q8 have then? Remember, cutting and connecting.

I think I mixed up those two points, and that my board was at move 36 when I said Q8 seemed better; if B played #37 at O7 then W Q8 could cut off black O7 from R6, could it not?

Another practical suggestion to Voss:

There is a nice site for beginners: 321go
It contains a go course for very beginners with tons of exercises.
Once you have solved (and understood) the problems you should be around 12-15k.

Thank you for that link, I find it very helpful (and fun!). Here as a total beginner I've had some troubles with understanding the logic behind some of the 25k-30k problems on Goproblems.com, so it is nice how simple 321go is. Thank you very much for the link!

A professional teacher will probably cost you about $35/hour. However, at your level, it is quite simple to get teaching games for free by just going to the KGS Teaching Ladder room on KGS (under "Rooms -> Lessons" I believe).

Ah thank you! Coincidentially I found the room just before your post, as someone in Help room mentioned it.



Go sure is complex, often I feel like I'm missing something that ought to be obvious, which is rather frustrating. But aside from that, I've managed to win two games today, though both by somewhat early resignation (move 49 and 125). It was very encouraging to see that I'm not the only one who makes big mistakes and end up killing my own groups sometimes.

But now I've come across another problem... Handicap games. I'm not sure how to effectively play either with or against a big handicap (Well, not that I can claim I know how to play anything effectively...). As white (let's say against a 5 stone handicap), is it then best to start at the side stars (sorry, I don't know if they have a name!) and then attack the corners? Or is it best to start attacking one of the corners directly? And as black (again, with 5 stones handicap), if white attacks one of your corners, should you respond to it or try to secure one of the other corners?

[jts]

Re re 10: I think we have lost the thread of the original question. I was saying you could play at G2 instead of G3, because B cannot cut at G3. Why not? Because after @G2 and @G3, White plays at E2 and the black stone at F2 is already in atari. True, at D2 puts W in atari, but then W simply captures, at E1, and then black's stone at G3 would be marooned and useless.

In handicap games, the best policy is generally to reinforce lonely stones when W approaches them. This way W won't be able to get a 2-on-1 advantage anywhere on the board, and will be weak and under attack everywhere. Later, when your stones are more numerous and secure, you should definitely consider ignoring any white move that doesn't seem to make a lethal threat - you will have plenty of targets to aim at and threats to make yourself.

[EdLee]

Voss,

[Thunkd]

The way I've always interpreted the saying "Lose your first 100 games quickly" was that as a new player you really have no idea what you are doing. So you sit there and agonize over whether you should play x or y. But the truth is usually that you just don't have enough experience to know which is better and likely both are bad moves anyway. So instead of spending a lot of time trying to figure it out, it's better to just play those introductory games quickly. After you play a fair bit, you'll start to notice patterns, what your opponent typically does, what moves are horrible failures, etc. And you start to get it. That's about the point where you start knowing enough of what is going on so that instead of choosing between two really bad moves, you're choosing between one really bad move and one not quite as bad move. (That's pretty much where I still am btw).

But seriously, don't feel bad not knowing what to do at this point. That's what experience is for, so go out and lose a bunch of games. It's the quickest way to see what doesn't work and why.

[billywoods]

As for the whole talking thing, I'm a bit torn as well. I was puzzled when my first opponent said "Hi gg", as in other online games I have played, normally the winner says "gg" after kicking the loser's butt. And saying "gl" wouldn't that imply that your opponent needs luck to win against you?

Best not to think about it too much - most people use "(have a) good game", "good luck", "have fun" etc. fairly interchangeably. (I suppose this is because half of KGS has learnt go from 'Hikaru no go', where the etiquette demands starting each game with a humble, polite phrase in deference to your opponent that's both literally and culturally untranslatable into English.)