Seo Pong-su

[snorri]

Anyone here like the games of Seo Pong-su?

[Dusk Eagle]

I've never heard of him.

[xed_over]

Anyone here like the games of Seo Pong-su?

I like that he started playing at age 14 and because a professional 3 years later.

Kinda puts our measly shodan in a year plans to shame

[lemmata]

I've never heard of him.

Guess who won the second Ing Cup after Cho Hunhyun?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ing_Cup

His career accomplishments are comparable to (perhaps even better than!) those of Nie Weiping, but Seo was always overshadowed by Cho Hunhyun.

I like that he started playing at age 14 and because a professional 3 years later.

Kinda puts our measly shodan in a year plans to shame

He was also self-taught without books and only got access to classic tsumego after he became a pro. There is a semi-famous story about him getting his hands on Xuanxuan Qijing for the first time at the Hanguk Kiwon and remarking, "What a wonderful book!" He didn't even know that such books existed.

Who knows how much stronger he would have been if he had learned go under the same blessed circumstances as Cho Hunhyun.

[Kirby]

I've never heard of him.

He's kind of like Cho Hunhyun's rival, but Cho Hunhyun was arguably more successful.

[p2501]

Excellent book by the way: http://senseis.xmp.net/?MasterPlayTheFi ... SeoBongsoo

[John Fairbairn]

He's kind of like Cho Hunhyun's rival, but Cho Hunhyun was arguably more successful.

Cho Hun-hyeon won 158 titles. Seo won 30. Where's the argument?

Cho vs Seo results are of the order of 225-119. Does that count as a rivalry?

Seo's popularity within Korea was based mainly on the fact that he was their only top player not to have trained in Japan, though it was also aided by his uncompromising style which earned him the nickname of Panther. Seo did also achieve some noteworthy milestones - first player to 1,000 wins inside Korea, first player in the world to 2,000 career games. His career record last time I noted it was an impressive 1295-716-3. (For comparison Cho at that point was 1422-556-4, but he is now in the region of 1800 wins).

[Kirby]

...

Cho Hun-hyeon won 158 titles. Seo won 30. Where's the argument?
...

Um, I agree that Cho Hunhyun won more games, etc., which is why I said he was more successful. I added the word "arguably", because "success" is not an objective term. I didn't say he had more titles.

Even considering the sheer number of games that Cho Hunhyun played against Seo Bongsu is enough to (arguably) constitute a rivalry.

Seo's popularity within Korea was based mainly on the fact that he was their only top player not to have trained in Japan..

Are you a Korean person? Do you have a Korean source that did some sort of public survey for this information? If not, why someone was or was not popular in Korea is just your speculation. Either way, this has no effect on the lack of objectivity in a term like "success".

[lovelove]

Cho vs Seo results are of the order of 225-119. Does that count as a rivalry?

Seo's popularity within Korea was based mainly on the fact that he was their only top player not to have trained in Japan, though it was also aided by his uncompromising style which earned him the nickname of Panther. Seo did also achieve some noteworthy milestones - first player to 1,000 wins inside Korea, first player in the world to 2,000 career games. His career record last time I noted it was an impressive 1295-716-3. (For comparison Cho at that point was 1422-556-4, but he is now in the region of 1800 wins).

Cho and Seo are well known as "라이벌 (Raibeol)" in Korea because many baduk journalists discribed them using the word "라이벌", which is a loanword from English for of course "rival". Your question, "Does that count as a rivalry?" is also heard among Koreans, because they should not be rivals according to their game records.

I'm not saying the baduk journallists misused the word. Actually, the usage pretty much makes sense by looking at the word 조-서 시대 (曺-徐 時代, Cho-Seo Era), right before Lee Changho's dominance when most of the title matches were played between these two players. Every time the baduk fans unfold a newspaper for the interesting news of a Kuksu match (or anything else), there is Cho and Seo, and this happens for nearly 10 years. Most of the times, as the records say, Cho won; but maybe people including the baduk journalists still felt and feels them as rivals. Baduk fans in Korea would agree both that Seo Bongsu is a rival of Cho Hunhyeon and sadly a number two.

[TMark]

...

Cho Hun-hyeon won 158 titles. Seo won 30. Where's the argument?
...

Um, I agree that Cho Hunhyun won more games, etc., which is why I said he was more successful. I added the word "arguably", because "success" is not an objective term. I didn't say he had more titles.

Even considering the sheer number of games that Cho Hunhyun played against Seo Bongsu is enough to (arguably) constitute a rivalry.

Seo's popularity within Korea was based mainly on the fact that he was their only top player not to have trained in Japan..

Are you a Korean person? Do you have a Korean source that did some sort of public survey for this information? If not, why someone was or was not popular in Korea is just your speculation. Either way, this has no effect on the lack of objectivity in a term like "success".

I am not sure what caused this ill-tempered outburst; did the budgie bite you that morning? John spends a remarkable amount of money buying books, newspapers and magazines from China, Japan and Korea and uses these sources to illustrate and entertain. Sometimes he will see an interesting book and buy it, only to find that he already has an (unread) copy on his shelves. He naturally uses them at some point in the translations and original works that he produces.

John has also presented two papers to the ICOB seminars in Korea, one on the history of Go publishing and one on the history of rules changes in baduk. I saw myself, in 2006, the respect that the Japanese and Korean historians of go give John for his knowledge of go history.

May we ask for details of your contributions to the subject?

Best wishes.

[snorri]

Excellent book by the way: http://senseis.xmp.net/?MasterPlayTheFi ... SeoBongsoo

In fact, it is this book that prompted me to ask the question. (Incidentally, Yuan Zhou says the same thing about Seo's popularity, citing that it is inspiring to some Koreans that a player with the traditional Korean fighting style, not training in Japan, could compete internationally at the level he did. I don't know whether Yuan's source of this notion is John or he just got the idea independently---he has a number of Korean friends, so I suspect the latter but I don't know for sure.)

Since no one so far has said, "absolutely, I love Seo's games" in response to my question, I'm left in an ambiguous state. In a way, I feel it's a pity that all of the attention goes to the very top pros. I think much can be learned from any professional game, especially from players whose ideas may contradict conventional wisdom.

I'll end with an anecdote Janice Kim shared. Seo Bong-su played a young Lee Changho. Lee, as usual, played just the biggest move on the board rather than getting into a complicated fight. Seo asked him why he played that way and Lee said it's the biggest move. Seo said, "child, don't have any blood in your veins?"

[gowan]

Excellent book by the way: http://senseis.xmp.net/?MasterPlayTheFi ... SeoBongsoo

In fact, it is this book that prompted me to ask the question. (Incidentally, Yuan Zhou says the same thing about Seo's popularity, citing that it is inspiring to some Koreans that a player with the traditional Korean fighting style, not training in Japan, could compete internationally at the level he did. I don't know whether Yuan's source of this notion is John or he just got the idea independently---he has a number of Korean friends, so I suspect the latter but I don't know for sure.)

Since no one so far has said, "absolutely, I love Seo's games" in response to my question, I'm left in an ambiguous state. In a way, I feel it's a pity that all of the attention goes to the very top pros. I think much can be learned from any professional game, especially from players whose ideas may contradict conventional wisdom.

I'll end with an anecdote Janice Kim shared. Seo Bong-su played a young Lee Changho. Lee, as usual, played just the biggest move on the board rather than getting into a complicated fight. Seo asked him why he played that way and Lee said it's the biggest move. Seo said, "child, don't have any blood in your veins?"

Re Janice Kim's quote, I hope there was no implication that playing a game that does not emphasize fighting for its own sake is somehow worthy of criticism. Lee's career speaks for itself in that regard.

[jts]

Could you point out a game that you think is especially characteristic of his style? The ones I found randomly clicking around on GoKifu and Go4Go didn't seem horribly aggressive - if anything, Seo seems very willing to compromise and sacrifice to gain elsewhere, which seems like the sort of "soba go" the anecdote has him criticizing in Lee Changho.

Of course, maybe this speaks to how hard it is for weak players to understand what counts as "aggression" on a professional level. It's clear enough to me when I review for players nine stones weaker... they use "aggressive" as a euphemism for "not what I expected" or "hard to deal with" or "exploiting an obvious weakness that I should have patched up twenty moves ago". I'm sure my understanding of aggression is defective in the same way.

[snorri]

Re Janice Kim's quote, I hope there was no implication that playing a game that does not emphasize fighting for its own sake is somehow worthy of criticism. Lee's career speaks for itself in that regard.

Nah, I just think it's a funny story. The great thing about go is that there are so many potentially successful ways to play. I'm just trying to learn more about what is different about the Korean fighting style. What are the choices that can edge a game in one direction vs. another? Is it more appropriate for amateur time limits? I'm not sure. You'd think that someone with an endgame focus would have a harder time at quick play, but professionals seem to be able to do anything and Lee Changho himself can also play with shorter time limits successfully.

Sadly, I think most professionals in the end are inimitable. But I suppose it's okay if they are equally inimitable.

[snorri]

Could you point out a game that you think is especially characteristic of his style?

Last game 1993 Ing Cup Final

Let's try some black to play questions:

$$W Move 6, Otake Hideo 9p (W) vs. Seo Pong-su, 2nd Ing Cup Final, Game 5, 1993-05-20
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$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Move 6, Otake Hideo 9p (W) vs. Seo Pong-su, 2nd Ing Cup Final, Game 5, 1993-05-20
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Where would you play as black?

$$W Move 22, Otake Hideo 9p (W) vs. Seo Pong-su, 2nd Ing Cup Final, Game 5, 1993-05-20
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$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Move 22, Otake Hideo 9p (W) vs. Seo Pong-su, 2nd Ing Cup Final, Game 5, 1993-05-20
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Where would you play as black?