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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #161 Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:22 pm 
Judan
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This can't be the right follow up.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc 11 at 2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 9 2 5 X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X 1 3 4 . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 0 X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


It looks like white can live, but it is not worth it, IMHO.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . 8 . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 7 6 . O X 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 O O O X 5 O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


EDIT:
Maybe white can't live.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 . . O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 O O O X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X 6 X O O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . 8 9 7 X X X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . c 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | b 6 0 4 8 O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 2 3 O O O X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . a X 5 X O O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X X X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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Offline TIM82
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #162 Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:44 am 
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Approved.

First of all, little brother's plan is faulty: black will not play either A, but B and capture by squeezing.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 :b6: :w6:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 3 X a O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 2 8 9 0 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . 5 4 b . X a O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 6 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Happily, the current move is useful in the following sequence, if black is unreasonable and blocks connection with 39. This 36 is my plan...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm32 :b6: :w6:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X 3 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 9 0 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 B . B . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In my opinion, white should aim to stabilize the left side group with 36 above, instead of trying operations on top. Reason: whichever of top or left white moves against, black will be streghtened towards the other, and left white is weaker than top.

Btw. If white wished to play against top with 34, G17 seems much better than this F16. No more diagrams, sorry, on iPad.
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Offline schultz
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #163 Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:29 am 
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For TIM82:
Knowing little brother's plans - have you already calculated in the correction for next move? And how well do you think he's going to figure out (divine) the plan you have in mind with what he has discussed so far?

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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #164 Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:41 pm 
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It's complicated, but in that sequence black should probably play 40 as below instead.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm32 :b6: :w6:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X 3 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 9 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 6 . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 B . B . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #165 Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:09 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm32 :b6: :w6:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X 3 . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 4 X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't really see the purpose of white's move here. White does threaten to connect to the topside group, though, so I am peeping to make white heavier and protect the stones. If I can get white into a running fight where he can't sacrifice, the game is mine. If white does sacrifice here, once I cut, I can lean on the center group to ruin the left side. I didn't read anything too devious white can do to resist, other than sacrifice (which makes white's last move a thank-you move, as far as I can tell).
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Offline illluck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #166 Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:16 pm 
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Something tells me that this is definitely getting changed. It makes the group strong rather than heavy.
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Offline schultz
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #167 Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:42 pm 
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illluck wrote:
Something tells me that this is definitely getting changed. It makes the group strong rather than heavy.

I can hear Ed now... "Broken shape"

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #168 Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:33 am 
Judan
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I'm not happy with this. I do like the idea of making white heavy, but I don't think we have time for it. White can ignore the peep, and hane underneath like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |[/go]


If we then proceed with the peep, white takes our corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 9 5 7 1 . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . 8 X 3 X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . T 6 4 2 X X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |[/go]

...and because of the unpleasant aji of C15, it is almost sente when white does it.

So let us assume that we crosscut:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 2 3 X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 X X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |[/go]

...white forces with 3, we extend with 4, then white patches with 5.

Now there are several lines, all of which look bad for us:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 4 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 2 3 X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O 7 . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 X X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 8 4 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 1 2 3 X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 9 . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 X X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |[/go]

So...

I do not approve.

There are at least two moves that I regard as better:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . B . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 B . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |[/go]


It depends on how strong the crosscut at :w1: turns out to be. This make take some thinking.

...more later...

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #169 Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:23 pm 
Judan
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm32 :b9: :w6:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . B . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . C X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White had several lines in which he could have caused chaos in our territory. This forestalls them all. We can still connect underneath. If white prevents that, he makes himself heavier. He may make himself stronger, but he makes our H stones stronger.

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Offline Splatted
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #170 Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:08 am 
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I don't know what to do. :cry:

My plan for this variation was to play F17 to cut black's two stones off, but now I realise it doesn't work because black can create a shortage of liberties with F15:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 :b9: :w6:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . B 1 6 X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 5 X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Actually that doesn't looks so bad if I continue like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 :b9: :w6:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O X X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 C O X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm going for it. :rambo:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm32 :b9: :w6:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 5 . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Offline TIM82
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #171 Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:14 am 
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Disapproved.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm32 :b9: :w9:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Quote:
schulz: Knowing little brother's plans - have you already calculated in the correction for next move? And how well do you think he's going to figure out (divine) the plan you have in mind with what he has discussed so far?

Yes, calculated that correction into my plan of course. However, I'm always trying to make as few corrections as possible. Each move I don't have to correct is a good thing - opponents often make moves you don't predict (like black's last move), forcing one to change plans anyway, and also less corrections puts the correction points pressure to other team...

Hope that was good enough answer, I was not sure I understood the point of the question? To Splatted's latest plan then:

Quote:
Splatted: My plan for this variation was to play F17 to cut black's two stones off, but now I realise it doesn't work because black can create a shortage of liberties with F15:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 :b9: :w6:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . B 1 6 X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 5 X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Actually that doesn't looks so bad if I continue like this:...


Black will actually play 2 at 4 above, and then connect, and it looks bad for us: bad shape, black can push us around in sente (a-d) and get solid corner + influence, and then invade left side next. 5 at 6 below is bad for us too. So, I have to disapprove.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 :b9: :w6:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . c a b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . B 1 d X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 5 9 . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 2 3 X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 6 7 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now then, what to do? My earlier plan has a fault too, namely black can play 41 at A below, perhaps exchanging B-C first:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm32 :b9: :w6:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . 9 7 c b X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 5 6 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 2 8 . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After my chosen move (and answers I can see), either the plan I had in mind or Splatted's plan will work.
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Offline TIM82
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #172 Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:17 am 
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Oh, and one more thing. I think Skydyr's last move had to be corrected, but I can't for the life of me understand why Joaz chose E17 instead of F17 :scratch: I'm very happy though, since I think it was an error, and would have played F17 myself :D
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #173 Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:25 pm 
Judan
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I regret to say that the new move is at least 3 points better. :grumpy:

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Offline Splatted
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #174 Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:38 am 
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I think I can see where I went wrong here. I was too focused on stopping black from connecting underneath that I didn't even consider what would happen if he played on the outside instead, but black G13 would have been terrible for white.
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Offline skydyr
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #175 Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:40 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm32 :b9: :w9:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . 3 X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 1 X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 2 O 5 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, here's my thought. Strengthen then cut.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #176 Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:36 am 
Judan
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This seems too heavy. :scratch:
If it were up to me, would hane at J14 immediately. But doing so costs 3 points. I don't think that my opposing younger brother will find the optimal way to exploit heaviness, so opposing elder brother will have to step in at least once, maybe twice - for 3 to 6 points. That is a net swing of 6 to 9 points by just sitting here and letting younger brother's move stand. :-?
So...


I approve

But with reservations.

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Offline Splatted
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #177 Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:05 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm32 :b9: :w9:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 7 O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I don't think he'll cut at F14 since it seems like I can't cut him even if I connect, which means the local position is basically settled. I'm not sure if we got a good result or not, but I do think it's better than what I was planning before Tim's corrections, particularly the first one.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #178 Posted: Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:49 pm 
Judan
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Right now, most of the strength of our game comes from the fact that white has a weak group in the upper left, where our stones outnumber theirs. If these stones get loose with no compensation accruing to us, the game is back to even...at best.

Younger brother talked about playing the bamboo joint at'a'. It is strong, but very slow. He further mentioned that he was thinking of the hane at 'c'. This only happens if opposing elder brother lets an equally slow move be played at 'b'. I suspect that he will not, and will spend 3 points if necessary to play 'c' himself.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . a X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . b B B . O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O c . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



We could treat 'a' and 'b' as miai, and declare our two stones to be connected, and proceed directly to 'c' without the slow bamboo joint. The problem with this is that the cutting stone at 'c' is vulnerable to a ladder. If we spend a move to preserve the cutting stone with 3, white has the vicious play at 4:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . 4 . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X X 2 O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...which continues like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 5 fills at H16
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . 2 X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O 1 O 3 . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 X X O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...and this...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc 8 at 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 2 1 4 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 3 O X 5 O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O X X X . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

..and this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc 3 at H18
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 X O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O X O O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O X X X 2 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X X O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


So cutting immediately is no good.

Maybe we can extend and cut.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . a X . O . . O . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X , X O . . . . . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . b X X 1 O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O O O 2 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . O , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . X . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Now, 'a' and 'b' do look like honest miai. Although if they take 'a', we will have to play 'b' and thereby concede 'd' to them.

This position is hard to evaluate.

_________________
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Offline TIM82
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #179 Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:02 am 
Lives with ko

Posts: 241
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Universal go server handle: TIM82
Online playing schedule: sometimes KGS
thinking, and travelling next day or so, will be back after that.

I personally would intuitively connect at F15 instead of G14, but is it necessary to correct? Seems like G14 may create a worthless floating group for us, but have to confirm.
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Offline Splatted
 Post subject: Re: Big Brother Malkovich #5
Post #180 Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:25 am 
Lives in sente

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Universal go server handle: Splatted
Interesting... I thought my move was forced but it seems both Tim and Joaz have other ideas.
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