How to Pronounce Korean Names or the Language Itself

All non-Go discussions should go here.
Boidhre
Oza
Posts: 2356
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:15 pm
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Location: Ireland
Has thanked: 661 times
Been thanked: 442 times

Re: How to Pronounce Korean Names or the Language Itself

Post by Boidhre »

MJK wrote:Well, I wanted to say that most English speakers can't pronounce [æ] in the end of the word. For example, in "Hyundai" where it should be [hjʌn dæ] I've always heard it as [hjʌn dei] in English. The same goes to [e]
Worse, when you try to explain [æ] as the a in "cat" for example that only works for some dialects because other dialects don't pronounce that a as [æ] but another usually fairly similar sound.

You could write out a precise pronunciation guide for certain words used here in Ireland spoken with an Irish accent from say the south. Most Americans and British speakers would find it very difficult to reproduce the sounds because the words will include some sounds borrowed from Irish. Again, as above, you could use a particular part of a word to explain the meaning of an IPA symbol but if you're thinking of BBC English then it's rather likely that there's a different vowel or consonant cluster sound used here in many common words which will end up messing things up.


Like above, I see [æ] as the a in "cat." I then need to figure out if my particular southern Irish accent pronounces cat in the way that's being referred to here (most of us don't), and I need to figure out if the writer was thinking of Received Pronunciation (BBC) or some Eastern or Western Coast American accent (it's almost never central US or Southern, nor Northern England, Scotland or Wales that people use for their reference point). This is fine for me, I married a language scholar who is useful for these kinds of questions, but for most people it's not going to be easy figuring out what symbols apply to their variety of English pronunciation (and honestly it's very complicated, there are around five main distinct "pronunciation dialects" in my city alone and I speak like none of them).
MJK
Dies with sente
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:15 am
GD Posts: 0
Location: Amsterdam, NL
Has thanked: 29 times
Been thanked: 63 times

Re: How to Pronounce Korean Names or the Language Itself

Post by MJK »

Okay. I must have made a hasty generalization that most English speakers pronounce like the recorders of the IELTS or TOEFL listening tests, which is a main source of hearing this language to me; also that, for the people who don't speak like the recorders, those who I erroneously thouht as a minority, they should know how to pronounce like the majority. And now I know this is a totally wrong thinking, maybe influenced by the social aspects of my native language that every non-Seoulers are actually required to know how to speak and understand the language of Seoul, so called the "standard language" officially defined as "the contemporary language of Seoul that people of refinement broadly use", while only 1/5 of the 50,000,000 South Korean population live in the capital. I will soon post this guide again when I can find out a better way than the IPA for explaining the pronunciation.
Wait, please.
Boidhre
Oza
Posts: 2356
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:15 pm
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Location: Ireland
Has thanked: 661 times
Been thanked: 442 times

Re: How to Pronounce Korean Names or the Language Itself

Post by Boidhre »

MJK wrote:Okay. I must have made a hasty generalization that most English speakers pronounce like the recorders of the IELTS or TOEFL listening tests, which is a main source of hearing this language to me; also that, for the people who don't speak like the recorders, those who I erroneously thouht as a minority, they should know how to pronounce like the majority. And now I know this is a totally wrong thinking, maybe influenced by the social aspects of my native language that every non-Seoulers are actually required to know how to speak and understand the language of Seoul, so called the "standard language" officially defined as "the contemporary language of Seoul that people of refinement broadly use", while only 1/5 of the 50,000,000 South Korean population live in the capital. I will soon post this guide again when I can find out a better way than the IPA for explaining the pronunciation.
French is like this, there is a dialect of it considered supreme and every French person is expected to be able to understand it at barest and speak it preferably. English isn't. I genuinely find it very hard to understand certain Irish accents and dialects, never mind the English of the Indian sub-continent or other more exotic locales for my rural Irish ear.

For pronunciations, there are some useful sound files on Wikipedia for each IPA symbol. This removes all ambiguity about this. But it's a bit abstract and going from hearing to producing a sound is non-trivial if it's not part of your home dialect.
John Fairbairn
Oza
Posts: 3724
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:09 am
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 4672 times

Re: How to Pronounce Korean Names or the Language Itself

Post by John Fairbairn »

Well, I wanted to say that most English speakers can't pronounce [æ] in the end of the word. For example, in "Hyundai" where it should be [hjʌn dæ] I've always heard it as [hjʌn dei] in English. The same goes to [e]
You've lived a sheltered life! Most people in the UK (including on tv adverts) seem to say it as in High-oon-die (rhyming with pie) and, to add insult to injury, putting a strong stress on the oon. Toshiba's another one that makes me cringe when it's mispronounced on the adverts, and of course Kye-oh-toe for Kyoto is another common indignity.
I will soon post this guide again when I can find out a better way than the IPA for explaining the pronunciation.
Life's too short to try that on L19, I fear. Even if you got the individual sounds right, you would need to explain the myriad sound changes. Choo & O'Grady wrote a book of 250 pages on that, for beginners, and still haven't covered the topic fully.
Assuming all dialects of English used the same vowel in "got" that they use in "hot" doesn't imply that all dialects of English should use one IPA symbol for that vowel, it implies that each dialect should use the same symbol for got that it uses for hot.
Another case where theories can't be trusted. Following the theory implied here, I would use the same IPA symbol for the 'a' in hand and dan (just to bring the thread back to go for a while) because I use the same vowel sound in both words. But lots of American make the 'a' in these two words very different: dan sounding like the way I pronounce darn.

But we have progressed. I'm sure English-speaking people of a certain age will recognise three infamous nuggets from their language-learning days:

1. "My postilion has been struck by lightning" (leading many poor souls to believe that they had a part of their anatomy called a postilion)
2. "a as in father, only shorter" (causing severe glottal trauma for 90% of the population)
3. "The vowels as in Italian" (Italian not being a language, of course, but a linguistic expression)
VincentCB
Dies with sente
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:49 am
Rank: OGS 1 kyu
GD Posts: 0
KGS: KrazyV
Tygem: kaiou19
OGS: VincentCB
Location: Canada
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 9 times

Re: How to Pronounce Korean Names or the Language Itself

Post by VincentCB »

Boidhre wrote:French is like this, there is a dialect of it considered supreme
Obviously you're talking about Canadian French :D
Disclaimer : I'm French Canadian
Hyundai
Here in Quebec most people pronounce it as on-day, which never made any sense to me.
Boidhre
Oza
Posts: 2356
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:15 pm
GD Posts: 0
Universal go server handle: Boidhre
Location: Ireland
Has thanked: 661 times
Been thanked: 442 times

Re: How to Pronounce Korean Names or the Language Itself

Post by Boidhre »

MJK wrote:Okay. I must have made a hasty generalization that most English speakers pronounce like the recorders of the IELTS or TOEFL listening tests, which is a main source of hearing this language to me; also that, for the people who don't speak like the recorders, those who I erroneously thouht as a minority, they should know how to pronounce like the majority.
To give you some ideas, here are some videos of Irish people talking with various accents:
The English of Kerry in Southern Ireland.
Belfast:
Dublin:

And again, Kerry, except one our biggest embarrassments in terms of politicians:
Post Reply