(GoBase.org) The Korean Problem Academy Questions
-
Alizais
- Beginner
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:04 pm
- Rank: DGS 20 kyu
- GD Posts: 0
- DGS: 20
- Has thanked: 6 times
(GoBase.org) The Korean Problem Academy Questions
Level 2 (15 kyu - 5 kyu), Problem 4
I assume this ends in seki if black is to live. My question is, why is O19 so special? Doesn't seki occur with black moving on O18 or R18 as well?
And why doesn't my SGF load on this forum? I generated it using Drago.
Thank you,
Alizais
I assume this ends in seki if black is to live. My question is, why is O19 so special? Doesn't seki occur with black moving on O18 or R18 as well?
And why doesn't my SGF load on this forum? I generated it using Drago.
Thank you,
Alizais
- Attachments
-
- 004.sgf
- (216 Bytes) Downloaded 1184 times
Last edited by Alizais on Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
Alizais
- Beginner
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:04 pm
- Rank: DGS 20 kyu
- GD Posts: 0
- DGS: 20
- Has thanked: 6 times
Re: (GoBase.org) The Korean Problem Academy Questions
Ah, I can see it now. Black needs to be able to survive if white makes the first move after seki. If black can't survive, it's not really seki and black just loses. (Hopefully that makes sense...) Thanks!tekesta wrote:The other two options make a dead shape. Some 4 space shapes can be killed by throwing in.
Last edited by Alizais on Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:18 pm, edited 4 times in total.
-
tekesta
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 546
- Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:10 am
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: FanXiping
- OGS: slashpine
- Has thanked: 18 times
- Been thanked: 81 times
Re: (GoBase.org) The Korean Problem Academy Questions
Black lives in seki after playing @ 14-19. L-4 or "dogleg 4" shape is guaranteed if White plays one of the remaining inside liberties after surrounding Black completely.
If White plays fist at the above mentioned point, Black dies.
If White plays fist at the above mentioned point, Black dies.
- HermanHiddema
- Gosei
- Posts: 2011
- Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:08 am
- Rank: Dutch 4D
- GD Posts: 645
- Universal go server handle: herminator
- Location: Groningen, NL
- Has thanked: 202 times
- Been thanked: 1086 times
Re: (GoBase.org) The Korean Problem Academy Questions
You should put http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=3511 between the sgf-problem tags, like this:Alizais wrote: And why doesn't my SGF load on this forum? I generated it using Drago.
- jts
- Oza
- Posts: 2665
- Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:17 pm
- Rank: kgs 6k
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 310 times
- Been thanked: 634 times
Re: (GoBase.org) The Korean Problem Academy Questions
This is correct, but it might be worth being specific about one minor point: afterAlizais wrote:Ah, I can see it now. Black needs to be able to survive if white makes the first move after seki. If black can't survive, it's not really seki and black just loses. (Hopefully that makes sense...) Thanks!
(This an important difference because some positions are "unsettled" - that is, black wins if black makes the first move, and white wins if white makes the first move. R19 would be a very bad move in any event, but what makes it completely unpalatable is that black dies and white gets sente.)
-
Alizais
- Beginner
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:04 pm
- Rank: DGS 20 kyu
- GD Posts: 0
- DGS: 20
- Has thanked: 6 times
Re: (GoBase.org) The Korean Problem Academy Questions
Level 2 (15 kyu - 5 kyu), Problem 38
Why is S18 wrong? How can white survive? How can white kill black? How can white cause seki?
Why is S18 wrong? How can white survive? How can white kill black? How can white cause seki?
- leichtloeslich
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 314
- Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:16 pm
- Rank: KGS 4k
- GD Posts: 0
- Location: Germany
- Has thanked: 10 times
- Been thanked: 128 times
Re: (GoBase.org) The Korean Problem Academy Questions
Your move is very obviously ko. If you can't read that out, do easier problems.why? how?
-
Alizais
- Beginner
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:04 pm
- Rank: DGS 20 kyu
- GD Posts: 0
- DGS: 20
- Has thanked: 6 times
Re: (GoBase.org) The Korean Problem Academy Questions
Cool! thanks for letting me know.leichtloeslich wrote:Your move is very obviously ko.
You're right. These problems are beyond my level. I am around 20 kyu but these problems are for above 15 kyu. However, so far, I have learned two things from asking these hard questions. I learned what seki is and I learned that for some reason, I want to avoid ko. I'll continue with this problem set and keep asking questions until it stops benefiting me.leichtloeslich wrote:If you can't read that out, do easier problems.
- leichtloeslich
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 314
- Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:16 pm
- Rank: KGS 4k
- GD Posts: 0
- Location: Germany
- Has thanked: 10 times
- Been thanked: 128 times
Re: (GoBase.org) The Korean Problem Academy Questions
You could have known that yourself had you looked at the obvious white move (the atari) and its continuations.thanks for letting me know.
You seem to be in need of some very basics for tsumegos. Please take a look at http://senseis.xmp.net/?TsumegoConventions#toc2 .
(In a tsumego, ko is always worse than unconditional life/death.)
Also, the problem set in question contains a lot of seki problems, so you should take a look at http://senseis.xmp.net/?KillingShapes .
-
Boidhre
- Oza
- Posts: 2356
- Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:15 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- Universal go server handle: Boidhre
- Location: Ireland
- Has thanked: 661 times
- Been thanked: 442 times
Re: (GoBase.org) The Korean Problem Academy Questions
Some variations (I messed up making them, ignore the 2nd and 3rd variations starting at
), for practice figure out why alternative moves are worse, especially look for ones where white can create a dead shape.
Extra practice, confirm that the seki solution doesn't work if the Q16 stone is white not black and that Black dies if they go T17 first in the problem diagram.
Extra practice, confirm that the seki solution doesn't work if the Q16 stone is white not black and that Black dies if they go T17 first in the problem diagram.
- Attachments
-
- Problem1.sgf
- (391 Bytes) Downloaded 891 times
- jts
- Oza
- Posts: 2665
- Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:17 pm
- Rank: kgs 6k
- GD Posts: 0
- Has thanked: 310 times
- Been thanked: 634 times
Re: (GoBase.org) The Korean Problem Academy Questions
The point is about what each side has to gain or lose in the ko. In a seki (usually, give or take), both sides have zero points. In effect if W can jump into B's corner and make seki, he has denied black the territory he would have gotten in the corner, but that is all.Alizais wrote:I learned what seki is and I learned that for some reason, I want to avoid ko.
When a corner situation becomes ko, all of the stones of one side will die. That means that the side with fewer stones profits more when he wins than the side with more stones does if he loses. In this case, black has 10 stones involved in the ko, and white has 4. That means that if white wins the ko, white scores ~20 points for the corner while if black wins, black scores ~8 points in the corner. One way of looking at it: by making ko rather than seki, black throws away 6 points (because he puts 20 pts at risk in order to have a shot at making 8 points). Another way to look at it; after black starts the ko, white will come out ahead (relative to the seki) if he can find ko threats worth more than 8 pts, but black can only come out ahead if he can find ko threats worth more than 20 pts.
As for learning - the main reason to do tsumego, imho, is to practice your reading. You are welcome to do whatever you enjoy and find productive, but eventually you should do tsumego to push your reading harder rather than to learn other things.
-
Bill Spight
- Honinbo
- Posts: 10905
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
- Has thanked: 3651 times
- Been thanked: 3373 times
Re: (GoBase.org) The Korean Problem Academy Questions
The second problem is interesting in that if it occurs fairly early in the game seki is correct, as a rule, even if Black can win the ko. The extra move will not be worth what it gains. Later in the game, which is when these corner L&D problems often arise, if Black can win the ko fight he should play the ko, otherwise he should make seki. 
However, the convention in tsumego is life before ko. Seki is life, and that is why the ko is wrong, in tsumego if not in a real game.
However, the convention in tsumego is life before ko. Seki is life, and that is why the ko is wrong, in tsumego if not in a real game.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
- cyclops
- Lives in sente
- Posts: 801
- Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 3:38 pm
- Rank: KGS 7 kyu forever
- GD Posts: 460
- Location: Amsterdam (NL)
- Has thanked: 353 times
- Been thanked: 107 times
- Contact:
Re: (GoBase.org) The Korean Problem Academy Questions
i couldnt stop laughing,Bill Spight wrote: The squaw on the hippopotamus is equal to the sons of the squaws on the other two hides.
they should ban you!!!
I think I am so I think I am.