How much would go change if diagonal stones were adjacent?

gour · Post by **gour** » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:06 pm

How much would go change if diagonal stones were considered adjacent?

DrStraw · Post by **DrStraw** » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:30 pm

It would be just about impossible as every stone not on the edge would have eight liberties.

Bantari · Post by **Bantari** » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:42 pm

DrStraw wrote:It would be just about impossible as every stone not on the edge would have eight liberties.

I don't think this would be much of an issue - it would be just harder to kill stones so you capture less on average during the game.

Instead, the considerations here would be:
1. How would a KO look like? and
2. You would have to spend a few more moves to secure areas (so securing areas would get harder).
3. Same (#2) also goes for eyes of living groups - which would affect some/many joseki (obviously) and invasions (which would get harder, I think - but this might balance with securing areas being harder.)

But all in all, I still think we would recognize the game for what it is.

However, once somebody tries it, a whole bunch of other issues might pop up... I never did so I am not sure what else can happen. Play a game like that and find out.

3D Go would be much more tricky, I fear.

MJK · Post by **MJK** » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:55 pm

Is 'adjactent' an English word? Unfindable in any of my dictionaries.

DrStraw · Post by **DrStraw** » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:59 pm

MJK wrote:Is 'adjactent' an English word? Unfindable in any of my dictionaries.

Didn't even notice that - I just read it as adjacent.

Mef · Post by **Mef** » Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:21 pm

Bantari wrote:
DrStraw wrote:It would be just about impossible as every stone not on the edge would have eight liberties.

I don't think this would be much of an issue - it would be just harder to kill stones so you capture less on average during the game.

Instead, the considerations here would be:
1. How would a KO look like? and
2. You would have to spend a few more moves to secure areas (so securing areas would get harder).
3. Same (#2) also goes for eyes of living groups - which would affect some/many joseki (obviously) and invasions (which would get harder, I think - but this might balance with securing areas being harder.)

But all in all, I still think we would recognize the game for what it is.

However, once somebody tries it, a whole bunch of other issues might pop up... I never did so I am not sure what else can happen. Play a game like that and find out.

3D Go would be much more tricky, I fear.

Effectively no more ladders, and there is no longer such a thing as a cross cut... the concept of a hane is lost too, as it is now just another stretch (albeit a strange one).

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:32 pm

Bantari wrote:...[what]...would a KO look like?...

To the best of my calculations, a ko no longer exists. :sad:

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:11 pm

Capturing a single stone would be like this presumably.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B No more ko $$ +------------ $$ | . . . . . . $$ | . X X 1 . . $$ | . X O X . . $$ | . X X X . . $$ | . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . .[/go]

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:01 pm

I think seki will happen a lot more often.

Boidhre · Post by **Boidhre** » Sat Aug 17, 2013 10:14 pm

Joaz Banbeck wrote:I think seki will happen a lot more often.

More problematically, no more false eyes. There goes 95% of the sub 15k tsumego.

Mef · Post by **Mef** » Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:34 am

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Bantari wrote:...[what]...would a KO look like?...

To the best of my calculations, a ko no longer exists.

Indeed, any stone causing a capture would need to be connected to at least one other stone of the same color...so ko goes out the window pretty quickly.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:07 am

Boidhre wrote:...no more false eyes. There goes 95% of the sub 15k tsumego.

There should be more false eyes. The problems just change.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W No more easy eyes $$ +------------ $$ | . . . . . . $$ | . X X X . . $$ | . X O X . . $$ | . X X 1 . . $$ | . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . .[/go]

EDIT: in the center of the board, an eye is now 16 times harder to make. On the side, it is 4 times harder. In the corner, twice.

Boidhre · Post by **Boidhre** » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:10 am

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Boidhre wrote:...no more false eyes. There goes 95% of the sub 15k tsumego.

There should be more false eyes. The problems just change.

$$W No more easy eyes
$$ +------------
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . X X X . .
$$ | . X O X . .
$$ | . X X 1 . .
$$ | . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W No more easy eyes $$ +------------ $$ | . . . . . . $$ | . X X X . . $$ | . X O X . . $$ | . X X 1 . . $$ | . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . .[/go]

That's not a false eye. Well, not under the usual definitions I've seen for them.

I mean your diagram is analagous to this no?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ . . . . | $$ . . . . | $$ . . O . | $$ . X O X | $$ . X X X | $$ , . . . | $$ . . . . | $$ . . . . | $$ . . . . | $$ --------+[/go]

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:12 am

Joaz Banbeck wrote:I think seki will happen a lot more often.

In fact, I would assume that in a game between competent players, the majority of the board would end up as a seki. Possibly the entire board.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:35 am

hyperpape wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:I think seki will happen a lot more often.
In fact, I would assume that in a game between competent players, the majority of the board would end up as a seki. Possibly the entire board.

I think that is probably true. Invasions are easy, so eyes are nearly impossible.
I tried a short game, playing both sides. The first player cannot make an eye with a 3-3 play because invasions are so easily connected out.

Actually, I would rephrase that as "... a game between competent aggressive players, the majority of the board would end up as a seki." It is possible that both sides would concentrate on their respective eyes first, then try to connect everything on the board to them.

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How much would go change if diagonal stones were adjacent?

How much would go change if diagonal stones were adjacent?

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