Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius

gaius · Post by **gaius** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:51 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 27, W: 24 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X O X . | $$ | . . m . O . O X X . X | $$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | p . . @ . . 1 W O . p | $$ | . . . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . | $$ | . . m . . B . . m . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]

freegame · Post by **freegame** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:12 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 27, W: 25 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X O X . | $$ | . . m . O . O X X . X | $$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | p . . @ . . X O O . p | $$ | . . . . . . . B W . . | $$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . | $$ | . . m . . B . . m . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]

my thoughts

I did not think he would go for this variation, but at least it's not something unexpected.
I expected a, avoiding weakness (cutting points)

Like I wrote before I play this move to live locally.

These cutting points he just created provide some interesting options for my hidden move.
I would like him to play his hidden move first, because a hidden move is great for a comeback if need be.
If i play it and he does not, then even if I'm ahead I have to be afraid of his hidden move.

he can do a scan and a move in one turn, so he can eliminate 2 options in one move.
I think I need at least 4-5 good options for a hidden move for it to have a good enough chance to succeed.
at the moment there are only 2-3.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 27, W: 24 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X O X . | $$ | . . m . O . O X X . X | $$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | p . . @ . a X W O . p | $$ | . . . . . . . B O . . | $$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . | $$ | . . m . . B . . m . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]

black has no time to take my stone.
below is what I think would happen then.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 27, W: 24 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X O X . | $$ | . . m . O . O X X . X | $$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . | $$ | . . . . . X O 1 . . . | $$ | p . . @ . a X W O . p | $$ | . . . . . . 3 B O . . | $$ | . . @ . . . B 2 . . . | $$ | . . m . . B . 4 m . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]

prokofiev · Post by **prokofiev** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:09 am

For observers:

freegame wrote:
next it gets a lot harder to read and predict ahead, but i did give it a try. If a I still play later when I defend it is sente because of the cutting point.
after 4 black has a problem with the minus point. even if he played it I will be able to live. if he plays b i will play c. now black can defend without playing the minus point, but I still live. If he tries to kill, I will cut taking the minus point and the corner.

$$Bcm1 Score - B: 23, W: 20
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . O . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . 1 a O O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B 2 c . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . 3 4 . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 23, W: 20 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X O X . | $$ | . . m . O . O X X . X | $$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | p . . @ . 1 a O O . p | $$ | . . . . . . . B 2 c . | $$ | . . @ . . . B . 3 4 . | $$ | . . m . . B . . m b . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]

gaius · Post by **gaius** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:05 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 28, W: 25 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X O X . | $$ | . . m . O . O X X . X | $$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | p . . @ . . X O O . p | $$ | . . . . . . . B W . . | $$ | . . @ . . . B . 1 . . | $$ | . . m . . B . . m . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]

The move he played seems to be the only move he has, and now the timing is quite subtle. I can choose between two sequences now. Because both begin with the same move, I will just play it now and make my choice later. Things that I will have to consider are:
- Which sequence is best for points?
- Which sequence leaves less ko threats in my shape and more in his shape? (as we both have hidden moves left)

"What will he do next?" - "See it next time on As the Malkovich Game turns!"

OPTION 1: The double hane of 3 seems crushing, but he has a way out by connecting immediately - I believe this is the only timing that works for him, it makes miai of living and cutting. The end result is given below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 nice timing for white $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X O X . | $$ | . . m . O . O X X . X | $$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . | $$ | . . . . . X O 4 . . . | $$ | p . . @ . . X O O . p | $$ | . . . . . . . B W . . | $$ | . . @ . . . B . 1 2 . | $$ | . . m . . B . . m 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 continuation, later the plus point is sente $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X O X . | $$ | . . m . O . O X X . X | $$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . | $$ | . . . . . X O O . 4 b | $$ | p . . @ . 1 X O O . a | $$ | . . . . . . . B W 2 . | $$ | . . @ . . . B . X O . | $$ | . . m . . B . 3 m X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]

OPTION 2: I could capture at 1 but it's not sente - he will simply take a corner. Something like this will be the result:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X O X . | $$ | . . m . O . O X X . X | $$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . | $$ | . . . . . X O 1 3 . . | $$ | p . . @ . . X O O . p | $$ | . . . . . . . B W . . | $$ | . . @ . . . B . 2 . . | $$ | . . m . . B . 4 m . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]

BUT - option 2 can be improved! In regular go, pushing first before capturing would be really ugly. But with the minus and plus points where they are, this would actually work quite nicely:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X O X . | $$ | . . m . O . O X X . X | $$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . | $$ | . . . . . X O 3 5 . . | $$ | p . . @ . . X O O . 7 | $$ | . . . . . . . B W . . | $$ | . . @ . . . B . 1 2 . | $$ | . . m . . B . . m 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . 6 . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]

freegame · Post by **freegame** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:14 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 28, W: 26 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X O X . | $$ | . . m . O . O X X . X | $$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . | $$ | . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | p . . @ . . X O O . p | $$ | . . . . . . . B O . . | $$ | . . @ . . . B . X W . | $$ | . . m . . B . . m . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]

my thoughts

gaius · Post by **gaius** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:50 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 29, W: 25 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X O X . | $$ | . . m . O . O X X . X | $$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . | $$ | . . . . . X . 1 . . . | $$ | p . . @ . . X O O . p | $$ | . . . . . . . B O . . | $$ | . . @ . . . B . X W . | $$ | . . m . . B . . m . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]

freegame · Post by **freegame** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:54 am

Atari

I took a 5 point penalty, but got an extra move on the board so i subtracted 4 points from my previous score. Is this correct?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 29, W: 21 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X O X . | $$ | . . m . O . O X X . X | $$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . | $$ | . . . . . X . 1 . . . | $$ | p . . @ . . X O O . p | $$ | . . . . . . . B O . . | $$ | . . @ . . . B . X O . | $$ | . . m . . B . . W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]

hmmm, he did go for taking my stone. I had not expected this. I'm going to be careful and read some stuff again before playing my move.

obviously :b1:

is the only move for black. after that I have several options.

my earlier variation does not work. after 9 I just die

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 29, W: 21 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X O X . | $$ | . . m . O . O X X . X | $$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . | $$ | . . . . . X . 1 . . . | $$ | p . . @ . . X O O 4 p | $$ | . . . . . . . B O 3 6 | $$ | . . @ . . . B 1 X O . | $$ | . . m . . B . 8 W 5 . | $$ | . . . . . . . 2 7 9 . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]

but there are other options

Maybe I also need to take into account the plus point.
now I took a minus point it would be nice to get a plus point to compensate.
this looks not bad at all.

a is another move I want to play, but that gives black the plus point.
because I just took a minus point this seems to be a bad idea

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 29, W: 21 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X O X . | $$ | . . m . O . O X X . X | $$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . | $$ | . . . . . X . 1 . . . | $$ | p . . @ . . X O O 2 p | $$ | . . . . . . . B O . . | $$ | . . @ . . . B 1 X O . | $$ | . . m . . B . . W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . a . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]

playing 2 immediately looks bad.
the cutting points at a and b allows black to kill my filled triangle shape.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 29, W: 21 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X O X . | $$ | . . m . O . O X X . X | $$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . | $$ | . . . . . X . 1 . . . | $$ | p . . @ . . X O O . 2 | $$ | . . . . . . . B O b . | $$ | . . @ . . . B 1 X O . | $$ | . . m . . B . . W a . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]

all things considered I'm not as happy about the result as I thought I would be.
still an even game though, but I had hoped to take the lead.

I have a question about the rules.
If a player loses a base stone he also loses the 5 points this stone is worth.
but, if a player loses a stone that had been played on a plus point would this lose him the 5 point bonus?
if not in endgame you can play a move at a plus point inside your opponents territory to gain points.
this would change the game quite a bit.

prokofiev · Post by **prokofiev** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:08 am

freegame wrote:I have a question about the rules.
If a player loses a base stone he also loses the 5 points this stone is worth.
but, if a player loses a stone that had been played on a plus point would this lose him the 5 point bonus?
if not in endgame you can play a move at a plus point inside your opponents territory to gain points.
this would change the game quite a bit.

My understanding is that you lose the bonus, but that your opponent doesn't then get it (i.e. it's not that the point itself is worth 5 points, it's that the first stone played there gains some special status). It's still good to play on the plus point inside your opponent's territory because you're depriving him of the bonus, just not as good as it would have been if it were a disputed point as you won't get the bonus.

Edit: Sorry, this appears to be wrong.

prokofiev · Post by **prokofiev** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:11 am

I'm not sure, though, whether your score increases by 5 or by 6 when you play a plus point. That is, do you get a point for placing a stone in addition to the 5 points or not?

Edit: I just watched http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bizg-unJNec&sns=em on youtube and, per that game:

1) You get 6 points when you play on a plus point (one for the stone, plus 5 point bonus).

2) You keep the 5 point bonus no matter what (go to the very end: black would have gotten only 86 points if he lost the bonus). You'll lose the one point if your stone is in the opponent's territory, but not the 5 point bonus.

This means my previous post was entirely wrong. Sorry!

freegame · Post by **freegame** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:03 pm

thanks for sorting it out for us.
I hoped that it would be like in your first post... :cry:

gaius · Post by **gaius** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:57 am

Well, then I will have to connect

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 30, W: 21 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X O X . | $$ | . . m . O . O X X . X | $$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . | $$ | . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | p . . @ . . X O O . p | $$ | . . . . . . . B O . . | $$ | . . @ . . . B 1 X O . | $$ | . . m . . B . . W . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]

freegame · Post by **freegame** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:07 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 30, W: 22 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X O X . | $$ | . . m . O . O X X . X | $$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . | $$ | . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | p . . @ . . X O O . p | $$ | . . . . . . . B O . . | $$ | . . @ . . . B X X O . | $$ | . . m . . B . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . W . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]

my thoughts

gaius · Post by **gaius** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:18 am

I have to think here. Move will follow later

My ideas:

OK, yet again I did not predict his move (this atari/connect). I have the feeling that it is slightly inferior for him to the "expected" sequence I gave earlier, but it's not so easy to count...

At this moment, it's hard to decide whether capturing does me any good. It seems to cost me points in sente, but also fixes a ton of aji:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . a b . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X O X . | $$ | . . m . O . O X X . X | $$ | . . @ . . X X . . X . | $$ | . . . . . X . X 1 . . | $$ | p . . @ . . X O O . 2 | $$ | . . . . . . . B O . . | $$ | . . @ . . . B X X O . | $$ | . . m . . B . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]

Black moves first: I get 4 points from the capture, he gets 5 points from the plus point. Net result: -1 point for black in sente, but the aji of hidden moves at a and b is fixed.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 6 takes ko $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . a b . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X O X . | $$ | . . m . O . O X X . X | $$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . | $$ | . . 5 4 . X 3 X 1 . . | $$ | p . . @ . . X O O . 2 | $$ | . . . . . . . B O . 7 | $$ | . . @ . . . B X X O . | $$ | . . m . . B . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]

White moves first: I do not get to capture anything now, but I do get 5 points from the plus point. Net result: +5 for black and white even has gote! Downside: I now have hidden move aji at a and b and having to spend a ko threat is expensive in this game. But the upside: white loses points in gote compared to the previous diagramme

I could also play immediately at the plus point; playing there looks good for white as well. I have two options: I could play one of the above sequences immediately, but it will not be sente. I also have the option of playing my hidden move now. There are so many places to put it, it could be devastating for white :twisted:

.

As I mentioned, Batoo is a reading game, and this requires some thought. Move will be posted later!

gaius · Post by **gaius** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:29 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 36, W: 22 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X O X . | $$ | . . m . O . O X X . X | $$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . | $$ | . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | p . . @ . . X O O . 1 | $$ | . . . . . . . B O . . | $$ | . . @ . . . B X X O . | $$ | . . m . . B . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . W . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]

freegame · Post by **freegame** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:11 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 36, W: 23 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O X O X . | $$ | . . m . O . O X X . X | $$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . | $$ | . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | p . . @ . . X O O . X | $$ | . . . . . . . B O . W | $$ | . . @ . . . B X X O . | $$ | . . m . . B . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]

Life In 19x19

Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius

Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius

Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius

Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius

Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius

Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius

Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius

Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius

Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius

Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius

Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius

Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius

Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius

Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius

Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius

Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius