Bad behavior in club...mostly mine.

[Inkwolf]

Okay, so I spent most of the summer with almost nobody turning up to play Go. (On top of that, my fellow Go coach, and the only one I could play face-to-face except for newbies, died last month.)

Last night, a family of six kids who used to come showed up again. (They are stressful because they all want to play me, and there's only one of me, and they squabble with each other the whole time.) One of the kids, I suspect, has Aspbergers. He is the one who originally got interested in Go, and brought his family with him. He even got his own Go board. On the down side, he acts arrogant and gets sulky very easily.

So, he was the first one I played. His moves were pretty wild and random, and I asked if he had been getting some practice over the summer at all. He said he won't play his brothers and sisters because he believes they would ruin his Go board. He doesn't play online because the other players 'take too long to make a move.' And he has more important things to do with his time, like play his video games.

So, halfway through the game (I believe I was already ahead on points) the kid said that the game looked like it was about over and that it looked like he had won.

I said, "Oh, it's just beginning." Then I invaded his corner and pushed under all the unfinished walls and attacked all his cutting points. At the end of the game, he had 13 points. I didn't bother to count mine.

He spent the rest of the night watching cartoons on his tablet while I played the other kids.

That was, I'm sure, absolutely the worst way to handle things. I just want them to take the game a little more seriously. After the meeting, I gave the family one of the cheap, small Go sets I've been gathering up for the purpose, so the other kids would have a chance to play at home a little, and told the first kid that he'd be sure to do better once he got back into practice, but all in all, I'm kind of ashamed of myself.

Any idea how to get kids to be more serious about playing? (And what to do when they annoy the heck out of you?) Most of them seem to feel like it's a race to see how fast you can put the stones down, and since they offer no challenge at all, I have trouble being a good example of slow and thoughtful moves.

[msgreg]

One of the great suggestions from the 2013 US Go Congress Teacher's Workshops about teaching children was to give commentary in the form of questions and answers as you each place stones. Such as "I want this corner, do you care about that corner" and "I wonder if you'll let me peek there, [opponent moves] oh! I guess so!" or "oh! I guess not!".

If the student is a little arrogant, then reduce or eliminate the commentary.

Another good suggestion I think, is to teach to the student's level. There is no huge benefit in slaughtering the student, as you seem to have done. Don't reduce your level of play, but do give suggestions as to how they can make a better play, and guide them in understanding why each time.

I hope this helps!

[Boidhre]

His age is a huge factor. How you handle an 8 year old is going to be rather different to how you handle a 15 year old. How you handle a kid with "difficulties" (diagnosable or not, it doesn't matter) is again different. The impulse is to punish impudence, and to an extent this is necessary sometimes with some kinds on occasion just to remind them of the gulf they have to bridge because for these kids it spurs them on. Doing it to others will make them quite because they'll become defeatist about reaching the goal.


Honestly, with young children, if you can get them to come away from the board with the idea firmly planted that a loss is an opportunity to learn you'll have done them a big favour in more than just the go sphere.

[hyperpape]

Teaching is hard, and what you're describing sounds like one of the harder cases.

I don't know that I'm even any good at it, but here are my thoughts:

If he says he's winning and the game is over, maybe just something like "you're right that Black has a lot of potential here and here, but it all depends on what happens if White invades..." is better than your comment (though I don't think saying "it's just beginning" is too bad).

As for slaughtering players, it can be hard to avoid. If it seems like you're playing without an adequate handicap, try to settle shapes as much as possible, and play moves where the natural response for your opponent is to do the same. That's hard, because what's natural for a beginner can be hard to discern. Play moves that safely kill, instead of stretching for everything--that helps them to see the consequences and the status of the board (oh, this is definitely dead).

Doing that, you can play sensible moves and still make the game competitive. But it is easy to misjudge, and until you're an experienced teacher, you'll still find yourself winning by a huge and unexpected margin.

Counting is hard, because it can seem like you're trying to crush them by demonstrating how big your win is. But if you don't count, it can seem discouraging too. I always default to counting (and don't rush to count as soon as that last pass--give everyone a moment to look at the board, and let your opponent say "well, I can tell I lost" or "can we count it?" if they are so inclined).

[wineandgolover]

I'm sorry your friend and fellow teacher passed away. I hope your club continues to do okay.

I have no suggestions about the kid.

[xed_over]

Whether or not you handled the situation with the kid correctly or not, I don't know. I might have done something similar
But at the very least, you deserve a gold star for the effort
And a hug for the loss of your friend.

Keep up the good work.

[Inkwolf]

Thanks, everyone.

They said they are planning to come back next week, so I will have another chance to try to get the kid interested. (He seems around 13-ish.) I will try to be a better coach this time.

[Boidhre]

Thanks, everyone.

They said they are planning to come back next week, so I will have another chance to try to get the kid interested. (He seems around 13-ish.) I will try to be a better coach this time.

Maybe counting exercises on 9x9 or 13x13 if he's drastically getting the score wrong? I don't know, patience can be an issue with kids (and adults) like this in my experience and it can be tricky to teach them anything they don't think they need to learn.

[Polama]

Simultaneous games would keep them all involved. It also naturally slows down the pace of play as they wait for you to get back to their game.

Compliment good moves. "Oh, excellent! I'd hoped to steal your corner but you stopped me." Or really, for most children, "drats, you foiled my plan!" would be more satisfying to hear. It can be hard in go otherwise to know what moves to repeat and which were terrible.

Before playing, try explaining that with lots of handicap stones, black just needs to keep his stones connected, and that will naturally make white's stones disconnected. Especially on a small board that's often enough for black to win, and it gives them something concrete to look for.

You might try a discussion group approach with all the kids. Set up a position and ask where they'd go. Or a couple shapes, and ask which they like better. Play out variations. You'd go here? But then where would you go as white to attack it? Interesting, let's play around and see if it works out. The idea would be to approach the board in a playful, exploring manner where nobody is on one particular side. Personifying the stones can be helpful here too. "What a brave stone, jumping right in!", "Poor white stone, doesn't he look lonely? I wonder if he'll find his friends?"

Print out some tsumego and give them to them to take home. They'll probably never do them, but it gives them the tools to learn if they're interested. I wouldn't treat it as homework, just as a fun, interesting puzzle you like doing and they might too.

And as for interacting with them, be humble when you win and excited when you lose, to show them how they should behave. Try to read their emotions and interact accordingly. If they're in a bad mood, it's probably not worth trying to teach them. If they're being particularly bratty, just be straightforward: "It isn't fun for your opponent when you taunt them after you win. It makes me not want to play with you. It's good to be proud, but if you make people feel bad you won't have anyone to play against." If you're with all of them, you may want to take the misbehaving child aside before explaining, calmly, why their behavior is bothering you. Doing it in front of siblings creates weird social dynamics, and 1-on-1, separated from the previous location, adds gravity. It probably shouldn't be a lecture, just a very short explanation of how their actions make you feel. Also, spend some time just talking with them. Do they like sports? What's their favorite video game? In my experience, interacting with children as if they're a peer resonates really well with them, and makes them try to emulate you.

[jts]

Just my own thoughts, take it or leave it.

First, it's hard to deal with people if you've already given them an amateur psychiatric diagnosis. The temptation will be to treat them as though they were diseased, not as though they were a fledgling go player. If his parents have not told you he has a psychiatric disorder, why speculate? If he came in coughing and hacking you wouldn't speculate about AIDS, I assume... if it gets to the point where his bizarre behavior interferes with the club, you can ask his parents questions to subtly hint you would like to hear the inside scoop, but my bottom line would be this: he is a teenaged boy. He is going to be awkward and rude, and probably somewhat emotionally fragile; very prone to sudden bursts of unwarranted arrogance or despondency. And then again, his parents have six children. He has five brothers and sisters! They've been ruining all of his toys since he was a toddler! I really do think that being born into a large family takes its toll on some people and you can't always read their coping mechanisms into a general psychological profile.

Second, it sounds like the oldest one doesn't really understand the game yet, if he thought it was over in the beginning. You can't expect too much from a beginner. It's much more relaxing to attribute peoples misunderstandings to ignorance than to arrogance. If he likes to win, give him a huge handicap. This isn't about teaching him self-control, that's his parent's job. You just want him to play go. Ask yourself, "what would I do if I was pushing heroin instead of go?" If he gets into it, the painful lessons can come later.

Do you talk about me and you when you review, or black and white? That tends to take the sting out of painful losses.

Third, if he can't stand to lose, clearly he won't enjoy playing online. But he does know about blitz, yes? I have trouble believing that the blitzers play too slowly for him. Anyway, assuming online play doesn't work, maybe print out a page of tsumego for him to do at home every week?

Fourth, kids are flighty. While you have their attention you can try to wow them, but there's nothing you can do if they don't want to play. If you try to push it, it turns into work. With six kids all wanting a chance to play, the odds are in your favor. Assuming you can get even three to play at once, you are using your time efficiently, and the ones who deciding they didn't want to play will feel left out and want the same attention their siblings are getting.

[SoDesuNe]

I can't talk about kids but teaching people in general. And my experience is that some simply do not care. They like to play Go but really don't bother to improve.

There is only so much you can do as a teacher, if they don't practice at home they most likely won't improve.

[judicata]

I'd say unless the kid was crying, you didn't try hard enough.

....but I'm the wrong person to ask.

[Inkwolf]

Polama, sounds like you're an awesome teacher! I have tried simultaneous games with this group. What happened in the past was that the kids in a hurry to play just got impatient and sometimes took two or three turns before even noticing I hadn't played yet, or complained that I was spending more time on the other players. Part of the trouble is that, with this large family, the kids really all want attention, probably more than they want to play.

First, it's hard to deal with people if you've already given them an amateur psychiatric diagnosis. The temptation will be to treat them as though they were diseased, not as though they were a fledgling go player.

Hardly. I have family members with Aspbergers. If anything, I just give them a little more leeway because they have a good excuse for being difficult.

But, yeah, the large family thing is the real difficulty, here. I don't think you realize the chaos that happens when all are in one room.

Do you talk about me and you when you review, or black and white? That tends to take the sting out of painful losses.

We don't review. They are not interested. But next time, I will do more in-game coaching, even if he doesn't seem to want it. Thanks for the advice.

[Bill Spight]

So, halfway through the game (I believe I was already ahead on points) the kid said that the game looked like it was about over and that it looked like he had won.

I said, "Oh, it's just beginning." Then I invaded his corner and pushed under all the unfinished walls and attacked all his cutting points. At the end of the game, he had 13 points. I didn't bother to count mine.

He spent the rest of the night watching cartoons on his tablet while I played the other kids.

That was, I'm sure, absolutely the worst way to handle things.

Oh, I don't know. Rule Number One: Be Genuine. You certainly kept that rule.

They said they are planning to come back next week, so I will have another chance to try to get the kid interested.

So far, so good.

It sounds like you need to give him a higher handicap.

[GoRo]

Hi Inkwolf,

thanks for your report about teaching and your latest experience.
Like in your wonderful Aji adventures I can see the reflections of my own successes and doubts.
Isn't Teaching comparable to Go? You like it ... and you try it.
The more you try, the better you will get

Cheers,
Rainer
(GoChild GoRo with 1906805 points)