49. Magicwand(3d) vs Violence(?d)

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:15 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . X . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Violence · Post by **Violence** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:19 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . X . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What a wide open board...

I'd like to take some time and think about this opening position before I play any more. I have a lot of work to do today, and then the weekend is here, so I think I'll play my next move on Monday.

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:20 am

enjoy your weekend.

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:35 am

Hey Violence,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . B , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

May I ask why you like this :bc:

instead of K10? I know both are playable and I've seen both before, but I wanted to better understand the meaning of one move versus the other. Obviously, K10 has a better relation to the right corner. Does this move leave noticable weakness on the bottom? Is there anything I need to be careful of if I try your J10?

Just trying to broaden my horizons and better understand the full meaning of moves and variations

Also for Violence:

tj86430 · Post by **tj86430** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:41 am

Chew Terr wrote:May I ask why you like this instead of K10? I know both are playable and I've seen both before, but I wanted to better understand the meaning of one move versus the other. Obviously, K10 has a better relation to the right corner. Does this move leave noticable weakness on the bottom? Is there anything I need to be careful of if I try your J10?

K10, J10? Do we have different coordinate systems?

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:44 am

Chew Terr

Violence · Post by **Violence** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:50 am

So...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Most people know that if you play here, the books say that approaching high and near to the lower right is bad.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 7 3 . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . 6 . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . 4 . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For example, in this diagram, black is connected on the bottom side, and feels much better than white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In this situation, the high near approach is much much more common. In fact, most people play it.

Yes, it was all part of my plan to induce him to play the high near approach so that I could play my trick.

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:08 am

Thanks!

Post by **Solomon** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:16 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , c . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . b X . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What is

? The shape is bad and to play like this is too painful. I refused to believe any sensible professional would play this way, so I checked the database. The general consensus seems to be to play at 'a', which allows B to strengthen the lower side for B with 'b', and then counter-pincering with 'c' as W:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X a b . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . 2 X . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After which B cuts off access with 'a' or 'b', or plays the solid 'c'. W can extend :w3:

to approach the top corner, and has S2 to R6 for life. White can also open up access to the center if he needs to by pushing with N5 at the cost of giving Black more territory on the bottom.

Website · Post by **Chew Terr** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:43 am

tj86430 wrote:K10, J10? Do we have different coordinate systems?

Ugh, I meant K4, J4. Sorry, I'm really not all here today.

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:53 am

if he plays 1 then i will play 2.
i dont like the variation sofar.. but i had my reason.(i hate running away while they solidify their points.)

later i will probe at "a" to setup the invasion in the bottom.
i dont think anyone is ahead by too much..just slight feeling that he got me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . X . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

schultz · Post by **schultz** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:07 pm

gowan · Post by **gowan** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:14 pm

tj86430 wrote:
Chew Terr wrote:May I ask why you like this instead of K10? I know both are playable and I've seen both before, but I wanted to better understand the meaning of one move versus the other. Obviously, K10 has a better relation to the right corner. Does this move leave noticable weakness on the bottom? Is there anything I need to be careful of if I try your J10?

K10, J10? Do we have different coordinate systems?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . C . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

With the Black K4 move White can reduce the bottom area with an invasion at the marked point. With the Black J4 move White can't invade here but Black's bottom side is wider and so easier to invade or reduce in other ways.

ketchup · Post by **ketchup** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:41 pm

Chew Terr wrote:Hey Violence,
May I ask why you like this instead of K10? I know both are playable and I've seen both before, but I wanted to better understand the meaning of one move versus the other. Obviously, K10 has a better relation to the right corner. Does this move leave noticable weakness on the bottom? Is there anything I need to be careful of if I try your J10?

Just trying to broaden my horizons and better understand the full meaning of moves and variations

Do you really mean k10? Tengen? Or is that a typo? Isn't this just a variation of the kobayashi formation? See: http://senseis.xmp.net/?KobayashiFuseki

See also: http://senseis.xmp.net/?KobayashiVariants

-edit- whoops, I missed that I was a page back! Sorry!

Violence · Post by **Violence** » Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:24 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 Prisoners: W=0, B=0 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . B . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . X . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Life In 19x19

49. Magicwand(3d) vs Violence(?d)

Re: 49. Magicwand(3d) vs Violence(?d)

Re: 49. Magicwand(3d) vs Violence(?d)

Re: 49. Magicwand(3d) vs Violence(?d)

Re: 49. Magicwand(3d) vs Violence(?d)

Re: 49. Magicwand(3d) vs Violence(?d)

Re: 49. Magicwand(3d) vs Violence(?d)

Re: 49. Magicwand(3d) vs Violence(?d)

Re: 49. Magicwand(3d) vs Violence(?d)

Re: 49. Magicwand(3d) vs Violence(?d)

Re: 49. Magicwand(3d) vs Violence(?d)

Re: 49. Magicwand(3d) vs Violence(?d)

Re: 49. Magicwand(3d) vs Violence(?d)

Re: 49. Magicwand(3d) vs Violence(?d)

Re: 49. Magicwand(3d) vs Violence(?d)

Re: 49. Magicwand(3d) vs Violence(?d)