IMHO that's not possible, otherwise GnuGo would not stick in the 6-8 k range


However that is one important principle in Go: If you have safely captured a group, you should not continue killing it immediately. Instead, it is much better to play in a region, which is not yet decided. It is a common mistake by beginners to kill captured groups completely (maybe in order to make things on the board more clearly), however this wastes much time, while the opponent can play in unsettled areas and get much profit there.


Yes, for the above reasons, GnuGo only completely kills, if it is absolutely required (e. g. to get rid of an atari).

If you post one of your games against GnuGO (or alternatively, have a look at http://gtl.xmp.net) you could get some good first hints by stronger players. Also I recommend to play rather human players (e. g. in the double-digit-kyu range on KGS) than bots.

If you get stronger after some time, IMHO playing GnuGo is a bit "dangerous": It tends to tenuki too early in local fights, which it can-not calculate completely, so it is comparable easy to establish an invasion in an area, where it normally shouldn't work. If you switch back to human players, your play might have become too careless, and you will lose too many groups.

a) You presumably have the bot set to be playing too much stronger than yourself if you are never winning a game.

b) You have the bot set not enough stronger than yourself to learn from if you are winning more often than every once in a while.

c) If YOU are losing by making the same mistake over an over you need to ask yourself "why am I not learning how to deal with this situation?". For the particular situation you describe (misreading life and death) you need to try doing some life and death problems.

d) Take another look at "a" and "b" and realize that this is not exactly a machine vs human opponent issue. If you are unsatisfied playing except against opponents you can beat 50% of the time your rate of learning will be very slow. You want to learn from opponents who make fewer mistakes than you do. At this low level, the non-MCTS programs probably better as teachers as they are more consistent (but if provided by an AI, select the "randomize" option -- slightly weaker but will not always make the same move).

3) Depending on you level (and you politics) you might have more options for free as in free beer software. If you are in the 20's or worse, the free demo version of MFOG might be useful. This is not "free software" but the 18kyu only demo version is free for download and includes some of the other features (the beginner level problems, etc.). I haven't tried this limited version (I have a MFOG license so for me, not limited) so I don't know whether it includes all the other features but you should at least check it out for that -- problems, fuseki, options like "tell me why" (why did it make the move that it did). However once you are ~20kyu or better the free version of MFOG probably no longer useful.

Hi T1m. I take it you're a new player? Welcome to the game!

In general in Go, the correct way for beginners to get games that they have a good chance of winning is not to ask the other player to make poor moves, but instead to start with stones already on the board. This handicap system isn't just for beginners, either... in three hours I'll show up to my go club and I might be taking two stones from our strongest player or giving six stones to one of our newer players.

I would suggest that you start by playing, not just GnuGo, but a much stronger AI called Fuego, on a 9x9 board with 9 handicap stones. Should you win this easily? Oh yes you should. Then every time you win you can take away a stone. Where will the game start to get really challenging? 4H, 3H? It's hard to say. But the point is, you should be able to set up a game where you are seeing very strong moves that surprise and delight you, while also getting a game where if you play to the best of your ability you win and if you slip up you lose.

The 9x9 board is to make it easier for you to keep track of everything that's going on, to see the connection between opening, middle game, and endgame more quickly, and so that each handicap stone has a bigger effect.

By the way, it's rather impressive that you've noticed the biggest differences between the way GnuGo plays and the way beginners play all on your own without any coaching! Not making unnecessary moves, and ignoring your opponent's moves to make a lot of territory elsewhere - both huge steps.

I feel like I should respond because I started this thread way back in 2010. I can't remember this post, but it is amusing to read it again .

Having bots to play is wonderfully convenient, but I can't really attribute any significant part of my improvement to bots. Rather, playing people and reviewing the games (especially with a stronger player, but even alone) has by far been the most beneficial method of study for me, along with doing go problems.

As for playing bots, I echo the advice given by others in this thread. And don't be reluctant to take a handicap.

EDIT: And it looks like I was about 14k at the time. I've gone back and looked at a few game records from around that time...pretty amusing to me now.

Since I have struggled with GnuGo and other bots long time ago, here are my suggestions:

When I was a beginner I hated to play with handicap stones, but in retrospect I see that this was wrong. So, start over with 9 handi stones. If you cannot beat the program, start with an easier program. For a long time I liked to play with Aya 6.34 (as far as I know this is still available for download). Its strength should be somewhere between 12 and 15k, so as a beginner you can start with taking 9 stones. Once you have beaten the engine, reduce the handicap. When you are able to beat Aya without handi stones, you should be able to play GnuGo with five stones. Then continue with the described procedure until you can beat GnuGo, or you can give it stones if you like.

It should not be too much of a surprise. GNUGo and other have been improved greatly. There is a juicy reward for those AI engineers that can produce a Go-playing software capable of beating a 9p in an even game. A tall order, of course, but it is a goal many AI engineers strive for. At the very least it would be a new pinnacle in their art.

I'm pretty sure those geeks get really pissed off when some professional Go player tells them their latest software is garbage. It only spurs them on to revenge. Hence the increasing strength of Go-playing software.

I usually never win against GNUGo. It plays at around 6k to 3k in strength, so unless I have a handicap 9 out of 10 times I lose. If I do win against it, it's because I play aggressively by attempting to develop quickly all over the board in the opening. Of course, as the number of possible moves is reduced, the software's powers of calculation become more apparent.

Someday I'll be able to beat GNUGo in an even game by 100 pts. Until then, I've no choice but to replay game records, do Go problems, and play actual games - of which I have not done much lately except on turn-based servers For any novice learning Go for the first time, I recommend the above regimen. A couple of professional game records daily - to get a feel for what a game of Go is like, minimum of 15 minutes of problem solving daily - to train your brain to analyze possible moves in any board position, and playing at least 2 games a week, preferably against a human - to apply what one has learned. (I would play Gobots for fun.) Depending on one's mood the time spent doing each item can be increased. All the better to help one improve; getting good at Go is hard work. No need to stress it out, though. Even pros had to study long hours and have lots of patience to get that pro certificate. Just take it easy and put in a little bit daily. Slow and steady wins the race.

As for Bayi it doesn't accept handi stones and only plays free games. It sometimes plays strange games. I have seen it beat 1k players, and in the very next game lose to a 9k player. For those who are interested, Bayi cannot be found in the computer room, but plays in the Indonesian room ('bayi' is Indonesian and means "baby').

Playing a stronger bot is frustrating for the same reason playing a stronger human is frustrating: Go is a frustrating game. As a beginner I probably should have stayed on 13x13 for longer, reduce the complexity and get better at some aspects of the game. There really is a lot to consider when you start and you get lost.

One thing I liked about gnugo however, is that it played the same tesuji, cutting, killing and playing some strong yose moves I did not know, over and over. And of course, being a bot, it didn't mind my undoing a few moves to try and correct my mistakes and check the score estimate difference. I found that helpful. But I didn't learn about playing an aggressive opponent, so it was not balanced.

A stronger MTC program with classic fuseki play, like MFoG12 would probably be best these days. Having a 3/4 dan opponent at your beck and call, even if it has flaws that can be exploited (like any 3d, otherwise it'd be a pro) and play it on 9 stones handi or whatever, is bound to be helpful.

Dudoso

1st of all, to have a 3-4 dan computer opponent at your beck and call (on a home machine) you'd need a much more powerful home machine than most of us have. However I think that's not out of the question these days since this is pure crunch power, not total resources of a server class machine. Say something with an i7-2600, i7-3770, or better in it. I believe those would put you in the same ball park as the machines some of the stronger bots are running on instead of an order of magnitude weaker (while powerful server class machines and cluster probably older cpus that have been outclassed by newer ones).

2nd of all, at your current strength, even a 1 dan MCTS program should be strong enough and all of the stronger MCTS programs can deliver that on what would have been a strong home machine a decade ago (say a 2 core , 2 GHz machine) and many of us have machines a couple times more powerful than that because more modern CPUs.

Remember, you don't have to play taking a nine stone handicap. Even if this opponent at your beck and call isn't strong enough to force you to take more than 5-6 stones that's still "high handicap". It's not till you get down to 3 stones or less that the opening is "open".

I don't think you'd need more than a "decent" home machine till you got better than 1-2 kyu.

I saw a game review of a Crazy Stone game made by breakfast (Dinerchtein 3p), he was was surprised that the moves from 17 to 71, (first time it beat a 5d in KGS, I think) were pro level in all aspects of the game."They were played on pro level! No mistakes at all. Nice shapes, good sacrifising. Who said that computers cannot understand ko fights?".

Now, I'm not saying a beginner needs a program that can beat pros on 4H, but is certainly doesn't hurt. The stronger the opponent, the more positive things one picks up. The whole argument against software is that you learn how to exploit it's glaring weaknesses. There are very few of these left. And as you say, the hardware required is not that expensive anymore, top end i7 processors which, give it 18 or less, will be mid range.

Dudoso

Maybe going over all the possibilities (of computer opponents) would be of some help here as this question is very much related to what strength opponent one needs at one's current state of go learning. Some of these are free as in "free software", others "free as in beer" (some specific version) and some you have to pay for.

absolute beginner --- I'd suggest the MFOG free trial version. It only plays at the 18 kyu level but that's fine for an absolute beginner. It only has the lowest level problem sets, etc. but again that's fine for beginners.

next level up ------- gnugo I understand there may be some problems with being able to set level of play but even so, when a beginner is beating MFOG 18 kyu should be able to play against gnugo taking 9 stones. Gnugo is "free software". Of course if not politically opposed to paying for software, could continue with MFOG if that's what you started with. NOTE: the actual cost of MFOG isn't high IF several go players in the family as it's a per site cost, not a per computer license and includes future upgrades at low or no cost. Always check things like that out when comparing software for purchase; what rights are you purchasing? (do you have to pay again when you migrate to a new computer or is that included, etc.)

next level up -- above 7-8 kyu you should be playing only against a MCTS based program. Fuego is a "free software" option, most of the others aren't, and the exceptions to that may require ability to do your own compiling, etc. Remember, that last part isn't even a violation of "free software" rules (technically the "free software" bit only refers to source code -- anybody can charge you for the service of compiling that for your machine if they want and nobody else willing to do that for you for free). The point here is that there are a number of options able to play 1-2 dan on a reasonable home machine (and 3-4 dan on a very powerful "workstation" class machine. As a side note, possible to get a reconditioned machine in this class for <$1000. But a "laptop" that powerful would be both harder to find and much more expensive, even a reconditioned one)

Thanks for the tips in here.

I've also been playing against GnuGo on my phone via ElyGo recently and have been loosing 19x19 non-handi games by 80-100 points -_-;

I used to play against Go Free (Aya Go Engine) on my phone and could beat it regularly. I will try to play some handicap games against GnuGo. When I set the difficulty on GnuGo is it actually doing anything?

The easiest and best for you to do is to grant yourself a couple of handi stones, and reduce the number once you were able to beat GnuGo.