Hey guys, I'm trying to learn some Fuseki, what is your favorite and what are its moves?
Also, why is it your favorite?
Favorite Fuseki?
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WhlteLotus
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skydyr
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Re: Favorite Fuseki?
The thing to understand about fuseki is that a fuseki isn't a set of moves, it's a goal and strategy for how you want the game to develop. Some are oriented towards large moyos, some towards solid positions, some towards maintaining simplicity, some invite complex fighting. The moves that are played are just in furtherance of those goals.
The most important thing in picking a fuseki is to pick the goal, and then to play moves that you think work towards that goal. Sometimes your moves (or my moves) will be wrong, but that's okay. That's how you learn.
As an example, one fuseki that's been somewhat popular of late is the micro-chinese. The terminology is a bit confusing, but I am referring to the second example here: http://senseis.xmp.net/?MicroChinese
One of the goals in playing this way is based on the standard mini-chinese: http://senseis.xmp.net/?SmallChineseFuseki. There is a common wedge/invasion on the right side as a followup to the basic pattern here, and with the micro-chinese opening, black's stone is positioned in a way that black can play against the white group in a particular line that doesn't work as well with the mini-chinese, because of that difference. To really appreciate this, though, you have to know enough about the goals behind the mini-chinese and it's standard counters to decide that this is the way you want the game to go.
To start off, I'd suggest a couple openings as black that are quite different in feel, the san-ren-sei, and the orthodox fuseki. The san-ren-sei is based around a center-oriented strategy, where black will play against white's approaches to cede the corners and build a large center moyo. The orthodox fuseki aims to build up a solid corner and a flexible position for later fighting in the other. It does this by threatening to make a fantastic side position if white doesn't try to do something about it.
That said, one important thing to read is http://senseis.xmp.net/?HighConceptOpeningMyth
The most important thing in picking a fuseki is to pick the goal, and then to play moves that you think work towards that goal. Sometimes your moves (or my moves) will be wrong, but that's okay. That's how you learn.
As an example, one fuseki that's been somewhat popular of late is the micro-chinese. The terminology is a bit confusing, but I am referring to the second example here: http://senseis.xmp.net/?MicroChinese
One of the goals in playing this way is based on the standard mini-chinese: http://senseis.xmp.net/?SmallChineseFuseki. There is a common wedge/invasion on the right side as a followup to the basic pattern here, and with the micro-chinese opening, black's stone is positioned in a way that black can play against the white group in a particular line that doesn't work as well with the mini-chinese, because of that difference. To really appreciate this, though, you have to know enough about the goals behind the mini-chinese and it's standard counters to decide that this is the way you want the game to go.
To start off, I'd suggest a couple openings as black that are quite different in feel, the san-ren-sei, and the orthodox fuseki. The san-ren-sei is based around a center-oriented strategy, where black will play against white's approaches to cede the corners and build a large center moyo. The orthodox fuseki aims to build up a solid corner and a flexible position for later fighting in the other. It does this by threatening to make a fantastic side position if white doesn't try to do something about it.
That said, one important thing to read is http://senseis.xmp.net/?HighConceptOpeningMyth
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zaqxswcde
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Re: Favorite Fuseki?
As black, I use Kobayashi quite a bit, and orthodox to some extent. I am long past my san-rei-sei phase, and almost never play it. I use Chinese a decent amount as well, but never mini-chinese.
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Loons
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Sverre
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Re: Favorite Fuseki?
My favorite fuseki is diagonal 6-4's as White, because it seems to lead to unpredictable and interesting games.
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DrStraw
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Re: Favorite Fuseki?
Recently I have been playing the moves show below as B and W. Of course, the position shown in on this board rarely occurs because the opponent rarely plays the same moves.
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
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Eerika Norvio
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Re: Favorite Fuseki?
Two komokus as black, if cross fuseki all the better. No shimari, just approach and pincer if opponent approaches.
I haven't found any comfortable fuseki as white, so I just play Something.
I haven't found any comfortable fuseki as white, so I just play Something.
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Pippen
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Re: Favorite Fuseki?
I like split fusekis, i.e. where black plays its 3rd move as a split or white his 2nd. These fusekis are powerful since they avoid a moyo game and force you to play creatively. I still wonder why pro's do not play them more regularly, if at all.
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SmoothOper
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Re: Favorite Fuseki?
Pippen wrote:I like split fusekis, i.e. where black plays its 3rd move as a split or white his 2nd. These fusekis are powerful since they avoid a moyo game and force you to play creatively. I still wonder why pro's do not play them more regularly, if at all.
I like splits in some situations too, I think pros don't play them because they are considered too slow, because they don't prevent mini-Chinese or Kobayashi formations on the side. I suspect some openings devolve into a split formation by move 8 or 9.
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shapenaji
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Re: Favorite Fuseki?
The Center Shimari
A recent game that I played with it:
The primary idea is that you want to give your opponent 3 corners in exchange for 1 corner, an unassailable center position, and the first two approaches.
All of your extensions get to be longer and your opponent is under constant threat of attack.
A recent game that I played with it:
The primary idea is that you want to give your opponent 3 corners in exchange for 1 corner, an unassailable center position, and the first two approaches.
All of your extensions get to be longer and your opponent is under constant threat of attack.
Tactics yes, Tact no...
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Bill Spight
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Re: Favorite Fuseki?
Pippen wrote:I like split fusekis, i.e. where black plays its 3rd move as a split or white his 2nd.
You mean
or 
, right? And you mean a wedge, right?These fusekis are powerful since they avoid a moyo game and force you to play creatively. I still wonder why pro's do not play them more regularly, if at all.
Emphasis on the side in top level play faded a few centuries ago. More recently, in the past several years, pros have played the wedge even less in early play, as it is not dynamic. IMO, this recent avoidance of the wedge is a bit unfair.
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Dusk Eagle
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Re: Favorite Fuseki?
shapenaji wrote:The Center Shimari
A recent game that I played with it:
The primary idea is that you want to give your opponent 3 corners in exchange for 1 corner, an unassailable center position, and the first two approaches.
All of your extensions get to be longer and your opponent is under constant threat of attack.
When I was in Seattle over the summer I was trying all sorts of weird fuseki against opponents of my level, including this, the great wall, and the tengen-then-invade-3-3. Overall results were pretty good, but I must say the game seemed harder for both sides when I did this.
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wineandgolover
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Re: Favorite Fuseki?
shapenaji wrote:The Center Shimari
The primary idea is that you want to give your opponent 3 corners in exchange for 1 corner, an unassailable center position, and the first two approaches.
All of your extensions get to be longer and your opponent is under constant threat of attack.
Is the center shimari really a stone better than a single stone on Tengen? Why?
Thanks.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Favorite Fuseki?
wineandgolover wrote:shapenaji wrote:The Center Shimari
The primary idea is that you want to give your opponent 3 corners in exchange for 1 corner, an unassailable center position, and the first two approaches.
All of your extensions get to be longer and your opponent is under constant threat of attack.
Is the center shimari really a stone better than a single stone on Tengen? Why?
Thanks.
Oh, I think that it is rather more than a stone better. It's quite a good idea, IMO.
How come? After the New Fuseki era, pros have almost abandoned tengen on the first move. I think that is because the stone is rather weak. It can help in the corners as a ladder breaker or maker, and it can help if a fight moves into the center. But it makes no territory, OC, and as thickness it is not very strong. Adding another center stone -- maybe a keima is better? -- means that each stone bolsters the other. I think that a center shimari is as good as a corner shimari, maybe better.
This, OC, implies that White should approach the Black center stone right away.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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shapenaji
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Re: Favorite Fuseki?
wineandgolover wrote:
Is the center shimari really a stone better than a single stone on Tengen? Why?
Thanks.
I agree with everything Bill said (especially white using their first move to approach)
But my 2 cents is that the biggest weakness of the tengen stone is that it can be isolated. A two stone center position really doesn't have that weakness.
It is slower. However, consider the following:
1) Tengen
Black takes Tengen and 2 corners, white takes two corners but then gets to choose the direction of the game by getting the first approach or reinforcement.
2) Center Shimari
White takes an additional corner, BUT is not in a position to follow up well against approaches. Since black gets the first approach, and can leave it, he also gets a second and third approach. It snowballs.
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