To find the correct SGF of an old game

macelee · Post by **macelee** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:30 am

I am looking for the SGF of this game:

1987-05-20 Japan-China Go Exchange
Kamimura Haruo 8-dan of Japan vs. Wang Qun 8-dan of China

Several sources have incorrect move sequences. This game should be in the 1987 Chinese Yearbook but I misplaced my copy.

Thanks in advance for your help.

amnal · Post by **amnal** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:37 am

Here's the version in GoGoD, though I don't know what version it is transcribed from.

macelee · Post by **macelee** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:51 am

Thanks for that. That is game #3 from the 3-game match between the two players. I am looking for game #1 played on 20th May.

amnal · Post by **amnal** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:05 am

macelee wrote:Thanks for that. That is game #3 from the 3-game match between the two players. I am looking for game #1 played on 20th May.

Oh, sorry! I missed the date and had the colours the wrong way around...apparently Wang Qun was playing white?

In that case, GoGoD has two versions and a note that they're both included precisely because they're so different.

John Fairbairn · Post by **John Fairbairn** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:11 am

Several sources have incorrect move sequences. This game should be in the 1987 Chinese Yearbook but I misplaced my copy.

I don't think I'd rush to assume the Chinese Year Book version is correct. At any rate, in GoGoD we included this game twice as the Japanese version and Chinese version were so different, and both may well be incorrect. This was a very common problem in the Japan-China exchanges where games were not recorded at the time but by the players, from memory, afterwards. The idea that pros can easily remember their own games has to be taken cum grano salis.

macelee · Post by **macelee** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:16 am

Thanks you very much!

The version 2 is clearly wrong. Move 169 is absurd (must be at C4, otherwise why on earth white plays C3 next?)

It is a surprise that GoGoD puts apparently incorrect SGF in the collection when there's an alternative. Some other online collections either shared the incorrect source or simply copied from GoGoD.

amnal · Post by **amnal** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:39 am

macelee wrote:Thanks you very much!

The version 2 is clearly wrong. Move 169 is absurd (must be at C4, otherwise why on earth white plays C3 next?)

It is a surprise that GoGoD puts apparently incorrect SGF in the collection when there's an alternative. Some other online collections either shared the incorrect source or simply copied from GoGoD.

Given the nature of the recording, as John says, maybe the problem is that the other sgf may be merely unclearly wrong.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:17 am

macelee wrote:Some other online collections either shared the incorrect source or simply copied from GoGoD.

Naughty, naughty!

macelee · Post by **macelee** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:50 am

Can anyone share the SGF of another game in the same tournament?

1987-05-26 Japan-China Go Exchange
Kao Masao (B) vs. Jiang Zhujiu (W)

HermanHiddema · Post by **HermanHiddema** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:05 am

macelee wrote:Thanks you very much!

The version 2 is clearly wrong. Move 169 is absurd (must be at C4, otherwise why on earth white plays C3 next?)

Yes, but other than that, version 2 goes on a bit longer and has a extra exchange at :w94:

The truth may well be in the middle.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:17 am

Bill Spight wrote:
macelee wrote:Some other online collections either shared the incorrect source or simply copied from GoGoD.

Naughty, naughty!

Didn't gogod do the same thing in copying pro moves and selling them? If the collection cites the source of the game, I don't see a problem.

amnal · Post by **amnal** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:47 am

Kirby wrote:Didn't gogod do the same thing in copying pro moves and selling them?

I have no idea what the actual copyright law result is/should be, but the major difference is that GoGoD would/do receive rights based on their cataloguing and recording to create a new collected work. In contrast, merely copying their database (a technically trivial derivation) doesn't/wouldn't accord the copier those same rights. That is, it isn't about the copyright of the games, but about the collection.

Regardless of the exact result of the law, I would personally find it reasonable for them to have some rights over their collection, based on the extreme time and dedication required to build it.

Edit: And to directly address your chosen wording, no it really isn't the same thing. As above, any rights obtained by GoGoD would be for the construction of their collection as a whole, not for any claim of owning an individual move of an individual entry. The standard analogy is of an author being allowed copyright of his book, even if he may have used letters (or even ideas, tropes and entire plot constructions) from other works.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:33 am

amnal wrote:I have no idea what the actual copyright law result is/should be...

Well, the actual law is probably all that really matters, because there are different opinions on the morals behind this or the amount of work something constitutes.

amnal wrote:Edit: And to directly address your chosen wording, no it really isn't the same thing. ...

Disagree.

As far as I understand, macelee was referring to an individual game, to which your argument does not apply. If someone took the entire gogod collection and tried to sell it as their own, then I can see that someone might argue that it took time to put together the collection.

But we are talking about a single game record here, and copying this from gogod takes the same amount of work as it took for gogod to copy it from a book or whatever source they found it in.

If you want to talk about effort or dedication, what about the dedication of those that compiled the original sources?

These days electronic sgfs might make reproducing a particular game easier, but for a single game, copying is copying.

Bantari · Post by **Bantari** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:00 am

Its a funny thing that this simple request for a game record derailed into copyright discussion.
But since we are there, and talking about GoGoD as well, there is one thing I always wanted to ask:
When GoGoD compiles its collection, by copying from all kinds of sources in bulk, I would assume, does that not violate the copyright law in some way? Or do they get a permission each time? Or do they see this as game-by-game copying? Or what?

Nothing against GoGoD - great job, you guys - just wondering.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:27 am

Kirby wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
macelee wrote:Some other online collections either shared the incorrect source or simply copied from GoGoD.

Naughty, naughty!

Didn't gogod do the same thing in copying pro moves and selling them? If the collection cites the source of the game, I don't see a problem.

No. The GoGOD copyright is a compilation copyright, IIUC.

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To find the correct SGF of an old game

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Re: To find the correct SGF of an old game

Re: To find the correct SGF of an old game

Re: To find the correct SGF of an old game