@ez4u:
Thanks for linking to your comment in the other post.
You, too, seem to have mentioned the opportunity for white to exploit 'a':
Could you provide some examples? I think if I understand this part, it really answers what I was curious about. Why is 'a' so threatening here and not when black 2 is at 'd'?
Joseki Question
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Kirby
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Re: Joseki Question
I very much agree. You are correct in that I thought something like white 9 must have been a weakness present in the given variation compared to joseki, but like I said, it feels sloppy.Bill Spight wrote:Whatever you may think ofKirby wrote: The best I have come up with so far is that maybe this allows white to play this way because of black's shape (if black tenuki after white defends cut):
But this seems rather sloppy for white.
Ideas?,
and
are vulgar plays.
Besides which, afterit is easy for Black to throw away his corner stones.
Perhaps "vulgar" is a better way of putting it than sloppy. In any case, it doesn't seem correct, which is why I am curious about the apparent solution of white having potential at 'a':
It's still not clear to me about why 'a' is so different here than if black 2 is at 'd'.
be immersed
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Kirby
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Re: Joseki Question
Comparing the potential of 'a' in the following:
and
In the first case, 'b' and 'c' could be locally sente fow white, so the marked white stone could possibly have more potential:
Is this the power of the difference in stone placement here?
and
In the first case, 'b' and 'c' could be locally sente fow white, so the marked white stone could possibly have more potential:
Is this the power of the difference in stone placement here?
be immersed
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ez4u
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Re: Joseki Question
If White descends atKirby wrote:Snip... In any case, it doesn't seem correct, which is why I am curious about the apparent solution of white having potential at 'a':
It's still not clear to me about why 'a' is so different here than if black 2 is at 'd'.
below, Black would like to be able to play from below around "a" to prevent White extending. However, is sente so Black has no eyes here.
If the marked exchange below has happened already, then something like "a" will cut White off so even the damage at does not matter.
When Black plays the marked stone below instead of "a", the descent at "b" pretty much goes away as a threat. So White goes ahead and exchanges for 
before finishing with or "c" in the corner.
Dave Sigaty
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"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
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HermanHiddema
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Re: Joseki Question
Yes. The follow-up at c is powerful, and then the position ofKirby wrote: Is this the power of the difference in stone placement here?
makes all the difference.-
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Re: Joseki Question
How does Black reply toKirby wrote: It's still not clear to me about why 'a' is so different here than if black 2 is at 'd'.
? 
Edit: We seem to have a consensus.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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HermanHiddema
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Re: Joseki Question
Bill Spight wrote: How does Black reply to
Edit: We seem to have a consensus.
Equally important: how does black reply to
?Hane may seem tempting, but:
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Bill Spight
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Re: Joseki Question
A little bit of history.
The taisha (
) dates to the mid 20th century. At first, was a common response to , obviously threatening the cut at "a".
was tried, as better shape, and after 
White is peeping at a bamboo joint.
In that case, why not play to force , which Black would not necessarily play after 
. After Black might play the hane at "a" instead.
But then, having played , why not play instead of the bamboo joint? Without the bamboo joint, looks good, and White may regret .
This gives us the "old joseki" mentioned above.
The taisha (
) dates to the mid 20th century. At first, was a common response to , obviously threatening the cut at "a". was tried, as better shape, and after White is peeping at a bamboo joint.In that case, why not play
to force , which Black would not necessarily play after . After Black might play the hane at "a" instead.But then, having played
, why not play instead of the bamboo joint? Without the bamboo joint, looks good, and White may regret .This gives us the "old joseki" mentioned above.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Joseki Question
Some people are easily tempted.HermanHiddema wrote:Bill Spight wrote: How does Black reply to
Edit: We seem to have a consensus.
Equally important: how does black reply to
Hane may seem tempting, but:
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.